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TomYaz 
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 Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 11:31am |
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TomYaz
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 11:35am |
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TomYaz
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 11:48am |
Get a load of this:
This is a JD 494 planter hacked to be a two row...
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LloydCentWi
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 12:17pm |
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richneu
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 4:05pm |
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My dad had a small IH pull type combine with an on board engine used for about 100+ acres of grain. It was originally pulled by an H Farmall. We used it for grain only in the 50's to early 70's. It did the job but constantly needed work every spring. It just shook it self to death. It lasted for many years before it was retired. I think the Gleaners were a little more robust, and they were always used for more acres. A refurbished small gleaner would be an alternative to a new. Many Gleaners were used by contract harvesting companies, after they started to need work they traded them in. Many were still usable. Or fixable.
Other than that a foreign built new one sounds like a promising deal. I know Japan has many small farms and have a use for one. To purchase one may be difficult though.
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Hudsonator
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 5:44pm |
I love that Scranton Prototype AC pull type! A pull-type like that with a 72' cut would be fantastic.
I'm a pull-type kinda guy. The major expense to a SP is the mechanics to pull itself. Engine, drivetrain, etc. My tractor driveline stays in shape, because I depend on it more often, and keep it maintained.
I'd be in the market for a picker before a combine. A thought to further simplify a picker manufacture would be to use hydraulic motors instead of purpose built gear boxes. I have decaker that runs under a pretty heavy load that is hydraulic powered. Standard hydraulic motors that I can pick up locally at a mill supply. Good simple design that doesn't tax the parts counter with special parts.
If you could build one with shileded rollers that could pull double duty on sweet corn and dry ear corn - that would be a good cross market. Pixall made single row pickers at one time, it was around $13,000 and I believe used hydraulic motors as well.
Mark
Edited by Hudsonator - 20 Nov 2009 at 5:45pm
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There isn't much a WC can't do.
WD's just do it better.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 5:52pm |
 Hudsonator wrote:
I love that Scranton Prototype AC pull type! A pull-type like that with a 72' cut would be fantastic.
I'm a pull-type kinda guy. The major expense to a SP is the mechanics to pull itself. Engine, drivetrain, etc. My tractor driveline stays in shape, because I depend on it more often, and keep it maintained.
I'd be in the market for a picker before a combine. A thought to further simplify a picker manufacture would be to use hydraulic motors instead of purpose built gear boxes. I have decaker that runs under a pretty heavy load that is hydraulic powered. Standard hydraulic motors that I can pick up locally at a mill supply. Good simple design that doesn't tax the parts counter with special parts.
If you could build one with shileded rollers that could pull double duty on sweet corn and dry ear corn - that would be a good cross market. Pixall made single row pickers at one time, it was around $13,000 and I believe used hydraulic motors as well.
Mark |
Mark,
I'm curous about those hydraulic motors. How do you translate a hydraulic pumps flow rate/psi to the horsepower it could make a hydraulic motor put out?? Felony acalcerosis bilinear copaline fornication pyrochemical reward elaborated splined inconsolable metamer degradation denumerant. Downshaft ricinelaidin cryoprotective unwomanly upwind clearway overreact responsibility dampness? vermox propranolol inoxidize triamcinolone hytrin
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Hudsonator
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 6:24pm |
TomYaz wrote:
Mark,
I'm curous about those hydraulic motors. How do you translate a hydraulic pumps flow rate/psi to the horsepower it could make a hydraulic motor put out?? |
Now you're taxing brain cells I haven't used since college. I'd have to do some studying up to get into hydraulic theory and application.
About all I can tell you now is from practical usage. The motors have a hp rating and a flow rating. The best I can tell, the motors are in series with the highest hp demand motor first, and the lessor drives after it. There is a gauge that reads the psi, which also indicates the amount of hp being used/applied. The greater the resistance by the work, the higher the pressure goes. A by-pass set at the limiting psi takes the place of old mechanical clutches, and in my experiance is a God-send as the whole machine just stops and avoids breakage. Once the by-pass is tripped, all flow diverts and stops the machine. The tractor engine is still laboring furiously however as the by-pass restriction keeps the pressures high. You have no choice but to address the reason for the pressure spike.
The motors turn a constant rpm based on the pump delivery gpm. Gearing is accomplished by sprocket ratios using standard sprockets and roller chain sizes.
Obviously, the more torque you need: the bigger the motor and pump need to be. Just like any engine, the radial distance of the pump and motor gearing dictates the torque output/demand and gpm requirement.
That's probably about as much help as I can be, just about enough to pique your interests and do some research (I kinda need to brush up on this myself!).
Mark
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There isn't much a WC can't do.
WD's just do it better.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 7:03pm |
Hudsonator wrote:
TomYaz wrote:
Mark,
I'm curous about those hydraulic motors. How do you translate a hydraulic pumps flow rate/psi to the horsepower it could make a hydraulic motor put out?? |
Now you're taxing brain cells I haven't used since college. I'd have to do some studying up to get into hydraulic theory and application.
About all I can tell you now is from practical usage. The motors have a hp rating and a flow rating. The best I can tell, the motors are in series with the highest hp demand motor first, and the lessor drives after it. There is a gauge that reads the psi, which also indicates the amount of hp being used/applied. The greater the resistance by the work, the higher the pressure goes. A by-pass set at the limiting psi takes the place of old mechanical clutches, and in my experiance is a God-send as the whole machine just stops and avoids breakage. Once the by-pass is tripped, all flow diverts and stops the machine. The tractor engine is still laboring furiously however as the by-pass restriction keeps the pressures high. You have no choice but to address the reason for the pressure spike.
The motors turn a constant rpm based on the pump delivery gpm. Gearing is accomplished by sprocket ratios using standard sprockets and roller chain sizes.
Obviously, the more torque you need: the bigger the motor and pump need to be. Just like any engine, the radial distance of the pump and motor gearing dictates the torque output/demand and gpm requirement.
That's probably about as much help as I can be, just about enough to pique your interests and do some research (I kinda need to brush up on this myself!).
Mark |
WAY over my head Mark. Just wondering how much power could a d17 hydraulic pump
could put out? Wonder if would be better to mount a PTO pump instead...
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John_SWPA
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 8:08pm |
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I agree about the pickers. Those older ones aren't getting any younger.
As for building a pull-type vs. self propelled, I believe pull-type would be great, if it would fit on a small trailer.
Not to get too far off track. There is a better chance of me winning a gold medal in figure skating than building a prototype combine, so all dreaming aside, I don't see a brand new combine coming to the market in the next 5 years, but after that, who knows?
Look back at production numbers for old combines. http://www.acgleaneronline.com/glequipmentw.html Production numbers used to be in the 10's of thousands, and through the 1980's and 1990's production shifted to much bigger machines and only sold a couple thousand units.
I don't believe you'll ever see a shift with production numbers of smaller pull type combines like you saw back then, but I do believe that a company could sell a few thousand.
I do think there is a demand for them. I think the demand will increase.
10-15 years ago, I could buy a 3 pt 2 bottom plow for about $30-50 at an auction. Last year, I saw them selling for $250-350 regularly. I even took advantage of the situation, getting rid of some extra equipment for a profit. LOL
I know there is a trend with small acreage farms on the rise. Whether or not it is great enough to warrant the need for brand new small combines...
Well, that remains to be seen.
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John-
"If I can't fix it, I'll fix it so no one can."
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Hudsonator
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 8:37pm |
| TomYaz
WAY over my head Mark. Just wondering how much power could a d17 hydraulic pump
could put out? Wonder if would be better to mount a PTO pump instead... [/QUOTE wrote:
Much better to use a pto hydraulic pump that is part of the machine, not the tractor. I don't mind lifting cylinders and running one small hydraulic motor o |
Much better to use a pto hydraulic pump that is part of the machine, not the tractor. I don't mind lifting cylinders and running one small hydraulic motor off the tractor - beyond that I'd want the machine to be self contained.
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There isn't much a WC can't do.
WD's just do it better.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 9:24pm |
John_SWPA wrote:
I agree about the pickers. Those older ones aren't getting any younger.
As for building a pull-type vs. self propelled, I believe pull-type would be great, if it would fit on a small trailer.
Not to get too far off track. There is a better chance of me winning a gold medal in figure skating than building a prototype combine, so all dreaming aside, I don't see a brand new combine coming to the market in the next 5 years, but after that, who knows?
Look back at production numbers for old combines. http://www.acgleaneronline.com/glequipmentw.html Production numbers used to be in the 10's of thousands, and through the 1980's and 1990's production shifted to much bigger machines and only sold a couple thousand units.
I don't believe you'll ever see a shift with production numbers of smaller pull type combines like you saw back then, but I do believe that a company could sell a few thousand.
I do think there is a demand for them. I think the demand will increase.
10-15 years ago, I could buy a 3 pt 2 bottom plow for about $30-50 at an auction. Last year, I saw them selling for $250-350 regularly. I even took advantage of the situation, getting rid of some extra equipment for a profit. LOL
I know there is a trend with small acreage farms on the rise. Whether or not it is great enough to warrant the need for brand new small combines...
Well, that remains to be seen.
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Hey John, went to that site, they have a pic of my 66 as representative of a 60...oops if you know the person they should fix that...
Just a thought on a "new" draper style 72. Imagine the 72" draper feeding nice and evenly into the cylinder whose cylinder bars were also 72", (they were in the 50 inch range on the original 72) and whose concave bed and spool the bars are on had a bigger diameter. Then a straight thru cleaning shoe that was as wide as the model 90...methinks capacity would be able to handle todays crops....whatya think?
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Jack(Ky)
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 9:30pm |
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I think the PTO pump would be the simplest way to go and I think the upkeep on the machine would be a lot easier using hydraulics. I would not consider using the wheels to run the pump because when the wheels stopped so would everything else. If you were pulling it with a late model tractor you might have enough flow to run it. I don't think any of the motors would ever use an enormous amount of pressure because we all know a one row picker could be pulled with about any tractor. Hudsanator, update me on the demand for ear corn. I need an excuse to put some out but I need to have a place to go with it.JP
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John_SWPA
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Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 10:52pm |
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Draper would be best. especially as a small machine marketed to specialty guys. nothing takes care of small fescue and grass seeds like a draper. If you have guys wanting a machine to use on turf farms, nothing beats a draper. Wider cylinders are a good idea. I have always been impressed by the All-crop head width to cylinder width ratio. I have a Gleaner K with a 13 foot grain head. It has a 27 inch cylinder. That's a ratio of 5.78 : 1. On an All-Crop 72, if the cylinder is 50 and the head is 72, the ratio would be 1.44:1. That is important for speed. Big cleaning shoe... big cylinder... small width head, and you can fly through the field if you have to. As it is, when running in 150 bpa corn, I can only run about 2 mph. With a big cylinder on a 2 row head, I probably could run 5 mph like a corn picker.
The idea of hydraulic pumps and motors on a machine would kill any hopes of having a low price unit. Rubber belts with adjustable shieves for speed adjustment are just fine. Perhaps mounting small electric over hydraulic cylinders on the shieves for electronic adjustment might be nice, but it would take away from simplistic reliability. Maybe a few different models? a deluxe?
As it is right now, a small square baler costs around $30-40K. Having a machine in the same price range would be best.
...and as I have said before, create marketing buzz by labeling it as a horse feed collector, instead of a combine, and you can't go wrong!
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John-
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TomYaz
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Posted: 21 Nov 2009 at 10:16am |
John_SWPA wrote:
Draper would be best. especially as a small machine marketed to specialty guys. nothing takes care of small fescue and grass seeds like a draper. If you have guys wanting a machine to use on turf farms, nothing beats a draper. Wider cylinders are a good idea. I have always been impressed by the All-crop head width to cylinder width ratio. I have a Gleaner K with a 13 foot grain head. It has a 27 inch cylinder. That's a ratio of 5.78 : 1. On an All-Crop 72, if the cylinder is 50 and the head is 72, the ratio would be 1.44:1. That is important for speed. Big cleaning shoe... big cylinder... small width head, and you can fly through the field if you have to. As it is, when running in 150 bpa corn, I can only run about 2 mph. With a big cylinder on a 2 row head, I probably could run 5 mph like a corn picker.
The idea of hydraulic pumps and motors on a machine would kill any hopes of having a low price unit. Rubber belts with adjustable shieves for speed adjustment are just fine. Perhaps mounting small electric over hydraulic cylinders on the shieves for electronic adjustment might be nice, but it would take away from simplistic reliability. Maybe a few different models? a deluxe?
As it is right now, a small square baler costs around $30-40K. Having a machine in the same price range would be best.
...and as I have said before, create marketing buzz by labeling it as a horse feed collector, instead of a combine, and you can't go wrong!
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Even though a good ratio is important, size of the threshing cavity is important too. Even though the AllCrop has a nice ratio, you can plug it up in heavy crop. Gotta have
a bigger concave bed. If you can engineer it so that you can combine at a pretty fast clip, that would compensate some for small header width.
On hydraulic motors... Even though putting a motor(s) on it will cost, what is the cost of engineering and custom manufacturing the mechanical cylinder adjustment mechanisms and the gearbox? Are there off the shelf gearboxes similar to the AllCrop ones? One shaft in, two out at 90 degrees and a "clutch". Having seperate motors would sure make some nice speed adjustments possible. On a modern combine, what
are the typical speed adjustments?
the gearbox? That
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amo1977
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Posted: 27 Nov 2009 at 5:31pm |
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Dont feel too bad about your old machines fella's.
My neighbor had the trans go out on his "NEW" combine. I think its an A65 instead of R65 or what ever. Pins that hold the smaller gears against the big bull gears that turn the tires slipped out of place. Less than 50hrs.
Just scanned this thread, but has anybody had any experience with a Belarous combine. Ive seen brochures on them about 10 years ago. Coffee shop talk told me once that somebodys neighbor tried one once. Not a BTO, but maybe average or slightly smaller than tried one once and after an average harvest it was sooo worn out they just parked it in the trees. Figured no resale value. Never heard anything about break downs, just wasnt up to snuff.
Didnt know if anybody else knew about these machines?
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DMiller
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Posted: 27 Nov 2009 at 9:27pm |
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I for one cannot afford to have a self propelled combine, a pull type would be great and that proto 90 looked real good to me.
The truth on farms near me is they are selling off, for tons of money to speculators. the fields grow shrubs or small trees, the land goes too far fallow to recover very easily and the price is beyond reasonable or farming recoverable. What is going to happen if 20-40-60% of the land ends up like this, where are we going to get the foods and supplies we need to survive? How are we to compete with the big factory farms and when we are gone who will keep their prices in check?
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Spud
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Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 8:53am |
I know Massey is a dirty word on this site these days but they had a small combine offered in North America. It was built in Brazil and marketed here in the late 80's early 90's. I don't know if any sold or not. People say they want small and simple but don't actually follow through on it.
They still build this unit. A link is below.
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dschambe
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Posted: 26 May 2011 at 9:48pm |
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Check out these new John Deere small combines available in Asia:
http://www.deere.com/zh_CN/JDL/Product/2004/combine_feature_intro/catalog.html
Wonder what would happen if you printed this out, took it to your local dealer, checkbook in hand...
would they still say 'no, we don't need your sale'??
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SHAMELESS
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Posted: 26 May 2011 at 10:34pm |
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i bought a "k" about 10 years ago, that someone had rebuilt from the ground up one winter. have used it every year since, my wife loves it! guess cuz i bought it for her for our aniversary!! dunno how old it is...but alot of parts interchange off an old "g" combine. which i also have. am running an IH 1440 now, as i couldn't find a complete 6-30 corn head for the "G". i didn't use it last year, but probably will this year for beans, as the header on my 1440 went kuput! and i haven't found another in my price range yet! i knew a fellow in iowa that farmed over 2000 acres...his only combine he used was a jd '45' with a 2-row head! looked kinda weird as it sat in the same shed as the 4x4 tractors and semi's, but he took care of it, and it filled a 50,000 bu. grain bin every year! yeah....he raised seed corn, and after the seed companies came in and harvested what they needed, they left 2 rows every round they made! thus...him only needing a 2 row combine!
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junkman
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Posted: 26 May 2011 at 11:11pm |
Are these small enough for ya?  that one is a ride on. now for the walk behind. 
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jhid
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Posted: 26 May 2011 at 11:30pm |
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I was just about to post that mini combine from cropland biodiesel too but you beat me to it
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red and green are nice for christmas, but orange is all year round
http://www.canadianantiquetractor.com/tractorforum/
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junkman
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Posted: 26 May 2011 at 11:34pm |
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Actually for the hobby farming I do, one of these machines would work just fine. But the pocket book isn't fine.
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Dave in il
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Posted: 26 May 2011 at 11:37pm |
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Back in the days of ear corn harvesting my Dad paid for a John Deere 45, then a 95 and finally a 6600 by doing custom combining. Not everyone could afford a combine, even a pull type back then. Truthfully it would be more cost effective to have 100 acres custom combined than to buy and maintain a new or late model used machine. I know that's not what most of us want to hear.
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wheatbreeder
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Posted: 27 May 2011 at 7:05am |
Plot combines are not cheap I worked with them for 26 years in wheat breeding and the are not built very heavily built in the I new wintersteiger five ft head cost about 200 k
Morley
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Farm stuff 8050,6690,175,F2,5050,WD
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victoryallis
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Posted: 27 May 2011 at 7:55am |
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If the Class are in Europe they can be brought to the states. There is a guy named Hurst in Pennsylvania that imports tractors from across the pond. Uncles had a pair of Genisis's sent over more features for similar money.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 27 May 2011 at 8:28am |
Well I guess I have some experience in these matters LOL!
I get a lot of queries for rebuilt all-crops, but very few takers on the price between 6K and 20K depending on the level of work.
I guess some would rather take a chance with an older SP...although that could cost them more in the long run if they get a high maintenance machine.
A lot of guys want rebuilt all-crops but very few want to pay for the work involved.
Good thing about the all crops is a lot of the metal is relatively easy to reproduce.
Edited by TomYaz - 27 May 2011 at 8:29am
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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Byron WC in SW Wi
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Posted: 28 May 2011 at 7:41am |
Dave in il wrote:
Truthfully it would be more cost effective to have 100 acres custom combined than to buy and maintain a new or late model used machine. I know that's not what most of us want to hear. |
It's only cost effective if they come and get it when it's ready. I plant my own, spray my own, combine my own and haul my own with my own equipment because a guy my size is WAY down on the list of the custom operators. If you incorporate you losses from not doing things at the right time with the cost of paying them to do it it easily covers my costs. My pay back time on my sprayer was four years, combine two and hauling probably ten if I've done it yet. Hauling is more of a convenience thing. This year I rented and planted 22 acres of beans cause I had the planter to do it. If I get a good yield and price one year will pay for 1/3 of that planters original cost.
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WD45
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Posted: 28 May 2011 at 8:58am |
For the small farmer buy a F2 or F3 , Case/Int 1640/1660 etc and rebuild them were needed with new sprockets, chain, belts , CYLINDER BARS etc.( one can use weld on hubs and sprockets and modify for most applications)When we ran Gleaner I would replace all the 2050 sprockets with 50 pitch sprockets and run 50 pitch chain.Also use 60H in place of 60 chain for cylinder drive on a K.
These machines are simple to work on and will last for many seasons. Store them in
a shed when not being used.
Maybe just hire a neighbour to do your combing if under a 100 acres.
good luck
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Fred Dunlop, G,B,CA, WC,WF, 3 WD45`s,gas, diesel and LP,U,D10 series III, D12,D14,D15 SERIES II,D17 Series IV in Gas and Diesel ,D19 GAS and D21,170 185,210 ,220 an I-600 8070 fwd, 716H and 1920H
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Dave in il
Orange Level
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Location: Manville Il
Points: 1748
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Posted: 29 May 2011 at 9:19am |
Byron WC in SW Wi wrote:
Dave in il wrote:
Truthfully it would be more cost effective to have 100 acres custom combined than to buy and maintain a new or late model used machine. I know that's not what most of us want to hear. |
It's only cost effective if they come and get it when it's ready. I plant my own, spray my own, combine my own and haul my own with my own equipment because a guy my size is WAY down on the list of the custom operators. If you incorporate you losses from not doing things at the right time with the cost of paying them to do it it easily covers my costs. My pay back time on my sprayer was four years, combine two and hauling probably ten if I've done it yet. Hauling is more of a convenience thing. This year I rented and planted 22 acres of beans cause I had the planter to do it. If I get a good yield and price one year will pay for 1/3 of that planters original cost.
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We have two farmers doing custom combining including an auger cart and hauling with a semi, they get their customers done timley or they wouldn't keep getting repeat business.
I don't own a combine right now for my 450 acres, but I do the trucking for my neighbor who does. We trade labor and equpiment use in the fall and provide fuel for our own ground and I pay him a pere acre rate for the combine. We have a few nieghbors around us with some variation of this. There is no way I could afford a CNH 2388 with an 8 row head and a 30' platform without this arraingment.
One thing about an buying an older machine and rebuilding it is not only the cost of parts but what could you be doing with the time you're spending wrenching on it? Could you be out making some money?
It's like anything else, everyone will have a different "right" answer. A lot depends on what your situation is.
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