Farm Equipment - Who would buy a brand new small combine?

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Who would buy a brand new small combine?

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Topic: Who would buy a brand new small combine?

Posted By: John_SWPA
Subject: Who would buy a brand new small combine?
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2009 at 11:44pm

I'm just curious.

Mainly, I'm just fed up with buying small combines that are worn out. I could never afford, nor justify spending a quarter million dollars on a brand new combine. Also, all of the new combines are disturbingly huge. I mean, I would seriously have to spend a ton of money to get my driveways widened to get it around the farm. As it is, my IH400 4 row wide corn planter will barely go down the road without knocking into telephone poles and trees. God help me if I ever meet a car coming the other direction.

I guess I feel like a brand new combine with a 10-13 foot grain head, or even a combine with an 8 foot head that would legally fit on a 14,000 lb deckover trailer would be worth the investment.

Am I the only one?

I know a lot of you guys are farming 3500 acres, or at least a couple hundred, but I am limited to 170, with about 1/2 of that as tillable acreage. It's still a lot of land to work with older machinery. When time is at a premium, reliability concerns me.

I can't say I would see a lot of hobby farmers shelling out cash for a brand new combine, but what if a company made one that was smaller, simpler, and more affordable?

If a company would come out with a smaller capacity combine that had a $30-40K price tag, how many would buy it? Could you justify $30,000 for a machine that you would use on less than 100 acres per year?

I guess there was a reason why the pull-types went away, as did the small machines. Lots of small farms died. Machinery costs make it hard to try farming on a small scale. I guess I could dump $30,000 into an old combine, but I don't think you could ever get an old one as tight as something new.

Just curious if this is something anyone else has considered.

Replies:

Posted By: Andrew(southernIL)
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2009 at 11:52pm

Have thought the same, almost gonna have to expand the farm to get descent equipment that will fit on it. Our combine is a 1440 in great shape but international doesn't offer an equivalent to that size anymore. And you can no longer buy a new head under 20' kinda makes me wonder what will it be like in 20 years when the remaining small equipment is wore out.

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Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 4:28am

Just finished 100 acres of corn shelling with the old F2. Original cost...$2,500. Repairs this go around... $165 for one bearing, one belt, and two roll pins.

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 5:47am

Been thinking the same thing. I think a new pull-type would have a niche market. Would

have to be trailerable.

They stopped making them cause hey werent selling enough. For the large companies,

"enough" may be far more than what a small company would need to sell.

I would think a small company would have most of the parts subcontracted out to avoid all the fab equipment overhead. Basically design, assemble, and sell.

I also wonder about corn pickers as well..

I would love to have my biz make these machines. Oh for the love of CAPITAL....

Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 6:24am

There is no market for a small "F2/F3".......by no market I mean the possible sale of enough units to justify the venture. Imagine if AGCO isn't selling any more than 500 new Gleaners a year how many new "F2/F3's" would they sell?? maybe 10 or 15??? and the cost??? it would have to be over $80K. Just rebuild your old....install all new brgs on every shaft and all new belts and chains, etc...we refurbish tractors all the time, so why not an old combine??

Posted By: DanWi
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:03am

Also thinking of that as I run an M hydro, maybe an F4,M4 orL4, 4 and 6 row heads 13 and 15 foot cutter bars. Who's going to use the machines with the 8 and 12 row heads and 30 foot cutter bars some of them are wore out in 3 to 5 years?

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:10am

We work only a small quantity of ground as well, I have looked at AC 60, 70 or going to a F series gleaner as to size we can use. I cannot justify a machine I cannot utilize either as to the giant units currently available.

It may be a niche market and as the buyers got their machines they wouldn't necessarily need to buy another but a company selling parts for AC as YAZ ALLCROP expanding to cover the old JD and IHC units may be a good sale. I do not imagine the 'other' companies allowing their previous units to be duplicated or copied in any altered form without huge royalty.

I saw a small JD at a recent sale with a six row corn header get bid on as if it were some sort of major unique item, then I realized it is still a demand product for the small farm.

It kinda fits tractors as well, the utility size we can use is made overseas, the massive corporate farm units are made here, maybe the foreign marketers will start selling their small combines here?

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: Byron WC in SW Wi
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:11am

Dr. Right. If you could get a new F2/F3 for $80,000 I'd be surprised and order mine right away. Right now a decked out 100 hp tractor is $100,000 and a low run combine would be more complex.

Still. I thought of this in the last year or two and there is a market for it. I think New Holland sells one in Europe that is smaller at least when I checked back then. I think for the time being though the best move is to refurbish your own or hope a company starts doing it.

Posted By: Ed in TX
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:17am

I don't know if you'ld call these combines but when I was in Japan in 05 these things were running the rice fields. The rice went right into the bags.

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:18am

Found this on the web:

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/First-Indian-multi-crop-harvester-exported-from-Chandigarh/374367/ - http://www.financialexpress.com/news/First-Indian-multi-crop-harvester-exported-from-Chandigarh/374367/

http://www.claas.com/countries/generator/cl-pw/en/products/combines/crop-tiger/start,lang=en_EU.html - http://www.claas.com/countries/generator/cl-pw/en/products/combines/crop-tiger/start,lang=en_EU.html

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:23am

Sorry if I offend anyone with the foreign machines but they are being made, just not here as with most everything else. The CLAAS units are not available here but are so much a throwback to the old McCormick and early IHC style combines but more adaptable to other crops.

I for one would rather see a Gleaner brand or even a International than the CLAAS units but that probably won't happen. I myself could best utilize a drawn harvester as a AC 70 than a engine powered self contained unit.

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:39am

TomYaz wrote:

Been thinking the same thing. I think a new pull-type would have a niche market. Would

have to be trailerable.

They stopped making them cause hey werent selling enough. For the large companies,

"enough" may be far more than what a small company would need to sell.

I would think a small company would have most of the parts subcontracted out to avoid all the fab equipment overhead. Basically design, assemble, and sell.

I also wonder about corn pickers as well..

I would love to have my biz make these machines. Oh for the love of CAPITAL....

Those are two things the small farmer needs badly. A 1-2 row picker/sheller and some means of combining soy/small grain/forage seed. Either would be high on my list of purchases.

Mark

-------------
There isn't much a WC can't do.

WD's just do it better.

Posted By: Jim Lindemood
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:59am

Tom Yaz -- You got it right. Something easily trailerable and capable of different crops. There ya go, jump on it. Capital shouldn't stop you - LOL. Serious note - interesting that Claas had the vision to see a need and try to fill it. Got to believe that on the world scene there is a market for such a machine.

Posted By: Spud
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 8:38am

Massey offered a small simple combine I think in the late 80's. It didn't sell well.

Everyone thinks a small combine should be cheap but it won't be. The cost of materials is a small part of the combine cost. It takes just as much time and manpower to bolt small parts together as large parts. It takes the same amount of time to machine a small part as a large one. Better to get an R40 or R42 and keep it maintained.

Posted By: LloydCentWi
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 9:03am

I've thought about how the future is going to turn out for small farmers. With the high scrap prices that we had the past few years I seen many thousands, hundreds of thousands of tons of old farm machinery getting cut up for scrap. Balers, pickers, combines, tractors etc...Most of the scrap guys don't bother removing knotters and needles from balers, power steering parts from combines or even weights. It's almost like gold fever, but instead it's "weight fever". It does seem like prices for older machinery in usable shape is going up. Balers used to be common at auctions for $100-$400. Now it's hard to find a beat up baler under $400. I see JD 24T's bringing $1500 when just 10 years ago they'd be about $500-$750.

Posted By: JJ_Ohio
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 10:26am

I'm going to an R50 in 1 - 2 years. Love the walker type machines but age is a factor. The newest L3's are 24 years old. How much longer with those before part availability becomes a major factor?

-------------
JJ
Polk, Ohio

Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 10:43am

The Claas 60 is a pretty neat machine. With the Euro getting so expensive compared to the US dollar there might be a nitch market for small SP combines made here and exported to various other countries. Probably hard to compete with labor in asia and India tho.

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 11:21am

If a company understands its market and runs its business appropriatly, anything is possible.

Did you know you can still buy a "rotobaler": http://www.agriquip.com/ - http://www.agriquip.com/

You can still buy wood cookstoves although the market is small.

You can get a self-propelled 14' combine in India. (maybe I should import them)

Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 11:44am

There are companies that build and sell small construction equipment, excavators, etc. Maybe they are the company that needs to be addressed on this venture?

-------------
D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 11:47am

Heck Claas makes them:

http://www.claas.com/countries/generator/cl-pw/en/products/combines/crop-tiger/crop-tiger-30/start,lang=en_IL.html - http://www.claas.com/countries/generator/cl-pw/en/products/combines/crop-tiger/crop-tiger-30/start,lang=en_IL.html

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: Bill_MN
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 3:54pm

what about a test plot combine?

http://www.kincaidseedresearch.com/mf8xp.html - http://www.kincaidseedresearch.com/mf8xp.html

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 4:01pm

Did you go to their web site? these are mini Massey machines, and the used ones are pricey with a 1998 at $90,000. Looks like either size would fit the bill though.

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: Rawleigh
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 4:51pm

One of the local dealers had a massey test plot combine on its lot this summer. Kinda cute little thing!

Posted By: John_SWPA
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 4:57pm

I wonder what it would take to import one of those Claas crop tiger 30 machines. I would look into something like that, but if I remember correctly, Claas is a German company. I'm not a big fan of German agri-businesses right now. I'm not saying they are all bad, but they have no respect for North American markets. That's all I'll say about German agri-business.

I'm thinking Henry Ford style is what needs to happen. Take a mix of Henry Ford, toss in Mcdonald's "made for you" and finish it out with Microsoft's marketing strategy.

Ford- Build a combine "model T" style. just the basics, and make it reliable.
McDonald's- Build them to order, in real time, with the resources to build as many as needed.
Microsoft- Market the machines before the bugs are worked out. Hype them up, get lots of attention, and then, after excitement builds, finish the product and make it available.

Henry Ford's only flaw was having children who didn't carry his vision(not calling them dumb, but I suspect they lacked the proper motivation to continue the legacy) Mcdonald's flaw was entering the "made for you" service model without a slow transition, they were never a "made for you" business, and therefore are having a hard time adjusting their entire business model. Microsoft's major malfunction has always been releasing a product that isn't fully developed, while spending millions on marketing. That is not to mention that the entire platform on which the original windows was based was not capable of the type of expansion that it underwent.

So, pick the best of each. Find the market, build something with simple parts that are easily replaceable, and market it to as many potential customers as possible. Use parts that are not specifically engineered for the application. (Ever notice how your new car doesn't have a nut and bolt anymore? You can't go to a hardware store for 90% of the hardware. Everything has a specific "fastener.") In this fashion, parts can be easily gathered to meet the demands if the market demands an increase in production, or likewise, if the market dips, you don't have a lot of specially designed parts taking up warehouse space. Take advantage of the falling price of the US dollar against the euro, and compete globally with a product that fills a niche.

Sounds like a plan.

Now, there's probably a few thousand people that are members of this forum, so everyone send me $50,000 and I can get right on product development. :-) LOL

Posted By: bikley
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 5:56pm

I know that a lot of university's use test plot combines try and find out where they sell the old ones

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: John_SWPA
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 6:33pm

I think that gets a little off point. The point being, to own a new combine with a warranty, and tight new steel that is not fatigued in any way...

Although plot combines are cute, and new, and they would be very good at handling small tracts of land; they are specialized for grain and seed sampling.

My thoughts lean more towards something the size of a Gleaner F or K. I was thinking F4, or K3.

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 6:41pm

I think I will try to locate a AC 72 sometime early next year, or something similar with a rotary drum feed; but pull type.

Posted By: wdallis
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 6:35am

I'm with Dr. Allis. I would think that there would be a nice business in refurbishing smaller combines, of all colors. Only being familiar with the Gleaners, if you get a somewhat straight combine to start with, then rebuild it from top to bottom, I think you would have a long lasting combine. Remember, a small farmer would be hard pressed to put any more than a 100 hrs on a unit in a year. You could then sell it for $40 or $50k with a bit of a warranty, and hopefully make some money. If I had the proper shop, the time, and the 'stones', I would look at doing it.

Posted By: John_SWPA
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 7:48am

I guess I take a different approach when looking at things, since I restore cars and do autobody collision work as a full time job.

I used to always look for the fixer-uppers in the bunch, and dump cash into them faster than the corn piled in the bin.

There comes a certain point in the life of metal, where it becomes fatigued from constant motion. I think combines have it the worst, since they are off-balanced, rattling, shaking, rolling, and generally constantly being "threshed" by the amount of motion involved in the process of threshing.

That's not to say that every combine is beyond help, but if you throw in a few years (30-40) of general deterioration, along with the fact that they sit still for long periods of time, you get a machine that becomes unreliable.

Where do you stop?   Do you tear the entire separator off the chassis? Do you break down the transmissions? Do you rebuild the hydraulic systems, replace all hydraulic lines and hoses, and linkages? What about sheet metal?

At a certain point, you are better off to start completely from scratch, or risk leaving stones unturned.

I'm just saying this to let you know that I have thought about it more than I should have.

I think the frustrating part with a combine is the price of used machines. A lot of times, the price does not reflect teh condition of the machine, and makes the initial investment price too high to justify putting more money into them.

For example, I know of an F2 combine that was sold for $8500 without heads, and within the first 3 years, the owner dumped as much into the machine. In the same, I have seen people on this forum and othe rplaces buying $2500-3500 F2 combines and not spent 10% of that on repairs in the first 3 years. It could boil down to "luck of the draw" but it seems that resale price does not necessarily accurately reflect condition.

When buying a used combine, I look at it the same way as I do anything else that is used. I ask myself, "Why is this machine for sale?"   Did the farmer expand production and upgrade to bigger machines? Did he find a great deal on another machine that was too good to pass up? ...or did this machine start causing more problems than it was worth?

It's usually the case. I can picture this person staring at the elevator chain, and thinking, "well, maybe I can squeeze one more year out of it."

You can almost draw a line graph showing the lifespan vs. care of anything from the day it rolls off the showroom and into the customer's garage, to the time when it is deemed scrap metal.

At first, every little scratch and ding hurts the owner more than the machine. The first time in from the field, and he has got a white cloth, wiping every trace of dust from every nook and cranny. Eventually, the "new car smell" wears off, and operation and care becomes mundane. Service and maintenance doesn't falter yet, as the machine is still too good and tight to be mistreated. Then, a time comes when the dirt piles up in thos nooks and crannies, and instead of a white cloth, the tip of a screwdriver is used to dig the dirt out.   Surface rust appears on the wear areas during off-season. Suddenly, that hard to reach grease fitting becomes the grease fitting that gets ignored. The machine starts down the slippery slope until it's time to trade in. The second owner doesn't treat it with the same respect as the original owner. In the back of his mind, he is thinking that he wasn't the first to fart in the seat, and since it's already got those bumps and bruises, it doesn't need kid glove care. It's not long before the third and fourth owners continue the trend as hours pile up and service bills pile up. From here, the machine enters the land of no return. Eventually, it winds up in the classifieds with "minor work needed" or else "just recently serviced" in the ad. Did the recent service include everything needed to make it like new, or just enough to get it to make the last few rounds in the field? Did it get patched together just enough to make it worth slightly more in resale value than the machine with "minor work needed?" Has it hit the auction circuit already? How many times did duct tape become a fixture in the cab during harvest?

Lots of unknown answers at this point. and it's usually at this point when they wind up in my lap!

So, that's how I look at things.

I mean, I probably could find a machine and clear out a 40x40 building and just tear it to shreds, put it back with all new parts and maybe have a reliable machine. What's the mark-up on Agco parts these days?   LOL

I'm not saying it won't happen. But, compared to a tractor, there's just barely, slightly, a teeny tiny bit more involved in overhauling a combine.

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 9:04am

John,

I was a mechanic for over twenty years when I switched professions, I remember the days looking for 'rebuildables' to take home and repair to a minimum to resell for a few bucks more than my investment, not very good for income but more of a hobby. It is easy to overspend and get overextended as to repairs and you are quite right there s a fatigue limit to all metal machines.

There is a niche market for the smaller conbines but that niche may not be continually profitable for manufacture as once that small niche is filled who will buy the machines? I also agree they need to be building a small combine for those of us that do not need the monsters but hey are looking at bottom line profitability and cannot devote line time to a machine of low return.

It is almost as they expect the small farm to die out.

Posted By: John_SWPA
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 9:21am

I agree.

I guess we are eventually supposed to conform.   We beat our swords into plowshares, and now, we are supposed to sell our patinated plowshares on ebay, so they can hang proudly on the wall at Cracker Barrel.

Shabby Chic, Patina, and wormwood are worse to me than any 4 letter word.

Maybe if I market it as a "Horse feed collector" and not a "combine harvester" it will sell well enough to get financial backing!   RFD-TV could sell me advertising space on their 20 hours per day of pure horse programming. LOL

Posted By: Byron WC in SW Wi
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 10:46am

That's a great post John.

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 11:16am

wdallis wrote:

I'm with Dr. Allis. I would think that there would be a nice business in refurbishing smaller combines, of all colors. Only being familiar with the Gleaners, if you get a somewhat straight combine to start with, then rebuild it from top to bottom, I think you would have a long lasting combine. Remember, a small farmer would be hard pressed to put any more than a 100 hrs on a unit in a year. You could then sell it for $40 or $50k with a bit of a warranty, and hopefully make some money. If I had the proper shop, the time, and the 'stones', I would look at doing it.

I have thought about doing that a lot, but so far have concluded like John. For someone

who uses them it might be a nice little sideline hobby business, but as a going concern I dont think it would fly. Remember you need to pay for the labor to tear it down as well

as put it back together. And that doesnt include refurbing the parts. OUCH! I think it would be much more cost effective to build new. As for who will buy them once the niche market is filled; they will wear out just like the big ones. There could also be a market for these in developing countries.

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: GlenninPA
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 11:30am

Take a look at China. With billions of people and an ongoing transformation to an industrial society, they will experience the "agricultural revolution" as the USA did in the "golden age" from 1890 to 1960. As the peasants leave the land in droves, to go to the cities, the need for mechanized ag will continue to increase.

Still, there is a labor surplus there, so the cost/benefit to utilizing giant machines may still be a ways off.

I bet if the All Crop 60 series were introduced to China, it would take hold and be viable. Especially if it were built with local labor and materials..... Team it up with a chinese copy of the WD, and watch out world!

I'm surprised some financial genius MBA at AGCO hasn't run the numbers and realized what an opportunity exists!

.....Oh, wait.... They don't know stink about ag, just numbers... That'll never work. Besides, they are too busy trying to save their way to prosperity here in North America by destroying their customer base.

Oh well, Tom, secure a license deal and learn Chinese. Go East young man, and make your fortune!

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 11:49am

Yes I can see it now...

A new allcrop 72" inch cut. Would be draper drive, as would be less expensive than auger and in many ways better. With a bigger thresher/cleaning area to handle higher yields, larger tank (top mounted not side mounted).. < 102" footprint......

If I cant make it here, I would have it made in India...

Ok where that capital I left laying around here somewhere?!!

Darn! no capital, wife spent it on that damn bichon dog

Should I offer an IPO? How does "AllCrop Implement Co" sound? (just different enough to keep you out of trademark trouble) Persian Orange of course

Then maybe a 35 picker improved to handle higher yields and can do sweet corn...

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: John_SWPA
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 12:02pm

Good point. So, when the dollar falls lower against the euro, we can export them.

Now, how close to a Gleaner can you legally design it, without infringing upon some sort of patent rights? I'd think the Patents or design copyrights would be run out on a 30 year old combine by now. So, instead of a Gleaner, can we call it a Grim Reaper, or "Greaper" for short? How would that look on the side of the machine? "Greaper K3" and our logo will be a triangular shaped "G" like this:

It's not quite copyright infringement...

but anyhow...

People will come in droves and buy many. Then, you can start producing the "ALICE-CHAMBERS" 199XT. It will be just like a 190XT, except without all that expensive Research and Development!

Companies do it all the time, just not with farm machinery, and usually, it's foreign knock-off companies that reproduce US products. We'll just be reproducing US products in the US. We can ship minor widgets to Germany for assembly, so that we can officially put "Made in Germany" on the decals, and then, German markets will buy them, and then, we'll have some stickers made up, and we'll ge those stickers made in China, so that we can put "Made in China" on the sticker (because the sticker would be made in China) and then, people in the US will buy it!

Maybe we can offer to sell the whole line to Agco, so they can put MF decals all over them. Some people will think it stands for Massey Ferguson, but we'll know the real truth of who those Germans are MF'ing.

:-)

(someone please stop me. I sniffed too much paint)

-------------
John-

"If I can't fix it, I'll fix it so no one can."

Posted By: Byron WC in SW Wi
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 12:31pm

JOHN - LOL!

Tom - Bichon Dog - Oh my!

Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 3:25pm

Tom, I'd be the first in line to buy an IMPROVED 35 picker. Forget the husking bed, make it a simple snapper.

Has anyone given a thought to what they'd be willing to pay for a new implement like this? I can't find a price on that Claas 30 combine. The Kincaid combine's price scares me to death.

-------------
There isn't much a WC can't do.

WD's just do it better.

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 4:58pm

Hudson,

Actually it may make more sense to build new one of these things to start than with a PType combine. The simplicity of the design may make it practical.

John you crack me up!!

Hey since you seem to have a photshop like tool, make me a orange diamond with a blue

border. In the middle put a blue "AI" for AllCrop Implement...It would be similar to the old AC diamond logo, but not quite...Its fun to fantasize anyway.....

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: Rawleigh
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 5:21pm

Here you go!! LOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxec1fr7czc&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxec1fr7czc&feature=related

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 5:42pm

Thats the ticket!

Someone should tell him if you want to combine grape vines(as opposed to grapes) you still have to go on the row, not between...

Posted By: John_SWPA
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 6:05pm

Are we talking something like this?

It probably could use some work, maybe "Yaz-AllCrop" around the top and "Mercer" at teh bottom. Errr... I mean, not that we would want to immitate "Allis Chalmers" and "Milwaukee"

Maybe "All-is-Calmer" at the top, and "Milkwalkee" at the bottom?

There was a company that made reproduction parts for Ford muscle cars that had a brilliant idea. On original ford parts, there used to be a ford oval with "FoMoCo" in script inside the oval. A reproduction parts company started producing parts with "MoFoCo" in script inside an oval! It didn't last long, but I'm sure you could find an occasional part with the stamping driving around somewhere.

-------------
John-

"If I can't fix it, I'll fix it so no one can."

Posted By: John_SWPA
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 6:13pm

Rawleigh,

That's it!

My search has ended now. I want one. It's like Ertl. "Just like the real thing, only smaller." HEck, if Ertl ever built a model of this combine, they'd have to make it on a 1/1 scale.

-------------
John-

"If I can't fix it, I'll fix it so no one can."

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 6:38pm

Close....Got to be all orange background. That too clse to the AC logo. Cant have the

the lawyers after us....Maybe put wording "AllCrop Implement Company, Camp Hill, PA."

Thanks for humoring me... we can dream right?

Posted By: roosky01
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 7:35pm

Why don't we just pool our money and buy the allis trademark and all existing inventory from AGCO? They don't seem to have much use for it.....

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

-------------
Government always finds a need for whatever money it gets.
Ronald Reagan

Posted By: John_SWPA
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 7:39pm

Dreaming is fine by me.

One thing, though...

While we are dreaming...

If you built a 72 pull type size machine from scratch, could you put the %^#& header on the RIGHT side? No offense to designers, I am sure there was a reason. But my console controls are on the right side, including the PD, and the header is on the left, so I have to reach down to teh right and back, while craning my head around to the left.

Swivel tongue is an option. It would put the header in line with the hitch for transport.

Here's a thought...

build a straight through separator with no right angle bend, put the grain tank on top, and make the tongue mount above the feeder house or drapers and have the ability to swing left or right, like a haybine. You could probably keep the whole unit under 108" and have it road legal for transport.

-------------
John-

"If I can't fix it, I'll fix it so no one can."

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 7:41pm

John_SWPA wrote:

Dreaming is fine by me.

One thing, though...

While we are dreaming...

If you built a 72 pull type size machine from scratch, could you put the %^#& header on the RIGHT side?   No offense to designers, I am sure there was a reason. But my console controls are on the right side, including the PD, and the header is on the left, so I have to reach down to teh right and back, while craning my head around to the left.

Swivel tongue is an option. It would put the header in line with the hitch for transport.

Here's a thought...

build a straight through separator with no right angle bend, put the grain tank on top, and make the tongue mount above the feeder house or drapers and have the ability to swing left or right, like a haybine.   You could probably keep the whole unit under 108" and have it road legal for transport.

Oh yeah thats better, now we need a much thicker blue border....

On your combine thoughts...yes you are right on the money...BTW in my allis book there is a pick of a model 90 sucessor prototype that had just about eveything you described. I will scan it...

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: Ryan Renko
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 7:54pm

This is getting very interesting!! The swivel hitch would be the most important upgrade I think!!!

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 8:05pm

Here ya go...what could have been...

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 8:07pm

With the header up the hitch will swivel. But I like the idea of a center mount hitch like

on a mo-co. This machine is still too wide but at least the wheels appear centered.

On the mo-co with center-top hitch, I wonder how the pto gearing looks like? It would be interesting for sure

Posted By: Ryan Renko
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 8:29pm

Tom, I would like to read the article!! I cant see it all. Can you help by reducing it or??? Ryan

Posted By: John_SWPA
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 8:32pm

Got bored one time and did this with paint program.    I would buy that.   I would definitely buy that prototype machine.

I like the idea of a self propelled combine, I like running them and I like looking down front to see the header.      I don't like having to take it down the road at 8 mph to get to fields. I don't like worrying about coming around every bend. and I sure don't like sitting on top of all that noise. You can't hear yourself argue with yourself, let alone think.

I think JD and versatile made huge pull type combines in the 1990's.   I don't think they sold very well.   Maybe we'll get an Indian or Chinese company to dig up one of these prootypes adn go to town.   I'm pretty sure that the most common size of tractor in India and China is around 40-50 hp.   ...and I'm pretty sure I saw pictures of someone pulling an all-crop 90 with a CA.

So, is it just a waiting game?   Or should I put on some coffee, and order some metal for prototype building?

How about building a chassis that you could carry older SP combines on?   like, look at that prototype you posted. Can you see the Gleaner C or A separator unit? What if we just started patterning an older reliable SP combine, and build it new, with improvements?   That would take a chunk of the work out of the equation.

-------------
John-

"If I can't fix it, I'll fix it so no one can."

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 10:38pm

John,

Getting late. Will do another scan tommorrow (its a pain in the ass)

Helluva lot more $$ to build a SP. Engine,tranny,electrics, etc...If building a new one, pull or SP, would want to use the K.I.S.S. principle, and use off the shelf components as much as possible. For instance, no reason one cant use later model aftermarket chaffers...(Why am I thinking of Johny Cash's "One piece at a time?) Forget about stamped sheet metal..(Tooling!!!) Dont forget OSHA....Oi vey!

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: jrs
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 10:50pm

Face it guys, who today can justify buying a New small machine like a combine today. There's not enough in the regular grain market to make this pay off. Only in specialty markets. Farming today is big business and as I have learned the hard way, big business gobbles up the small business. Or else I would be farming my small farm myself! Oh if you have a specialty business or deep pockets, you could do this. I'd love a brand new WD! Heck, I can't even find one around this area lately in "my" price. Only something catastrophic could cause the market to come back again. Then something that big would probably destroy we small guys so we wouldn't be in a position to buy anything anyway. I highly suspect you can buy things like the old Maytag wringer washers and such in foriegn countries at afordable prices today. But that wouldn't be available to someone in the USA! I'd love to see a three bottom plow take over today. I truely think we need to return to these simple times. Often wish I was 30 years older!

Later,
JR...

Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 5:42am

The biggest reason the huge farms have taken over is anti trust laws were changed or are just plain ignored, but that's a topic for the other board maybe.

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-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink
I am a Russian Bot

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 5:58am

I agree for the most part. I think a small SP market is more risky than a pull-type because of the price one would have to pay. The one thing your forgetting is the specialized markets that dont do thousands of acres but whose product has a higher value than ordinary corn and soybeans. Think organic edible beans for example. Or that fellow I sold parts to who uses one to grow his own grass seed for his turf farm. These oddball crops work very well with the all-crop design. It would be a nich for sure, just like the plot combines are a niche.

Actaully I think there would be a better market for a corn picker. Not for someone who's not taking corn to market but for those who feed it out. A corn crib and mother nature drying the corn is a lot cheaper than a grain bin, dryers and energy.

EDIT: I see you did say the specialized markets....so you didnt forget! My Bad. But yep,

a new allcrop with its unique way of thrashing would be good for the specialized market.

Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 8:06am

TomYaz wrote:

.... The one thing your forgetting is the specialized markets that dont do thousands of acres but whose product has a higher value than ordinary corn and soybeans. Think organic edible beans for example. Or that fellow I sold parts to who uses one to grow his own grass seed for his turf farm. These oddball crops work very well with the all-crop design. It would be a nich for sure, just like the plot combines are a niche.

EDIT: I see you did say the specialized markets....so you didnt forget! My Bad. But yep,

a new allcrop with its unique way of thrashing would be good for the specialized market.

Actually, both machines are something the small farmer needs badly. Where I live, there is a huge demand for ear corn with the pickers getting old/worn and harder to find. I agree with Tom on his picker assessment. Corn is the big item and his logic is right on target there.

I've had my eye on this forum since 1999, the amount of actual work done here with older machinery has exploded in that decade. Most of us use it because it fits the job and we want to be more independent on our small/mid sized farms. As raw commodity prices rise, raising your own feed grains will make more sense - and is happening right now.

Price is the big factor here, and why I asked my last question. What price could we justify on either picker or small combine?

-------------
There isn't much a WC can't do.

WD's just do it better.

Posted By: Spud
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 8:53am

All the major manufacturers still make a small self propelled combine. They just aren't sold here. They sell them in Latin America, India, etc. There are some smaller european combines too but they have so many features that I can't see them selling cheaply. An example of this would be the John Deere 4435 that was sold in the US and Canada in the 90s.

I believe there would be emisions requirements on engines as well.

Posted By: TexasAllis
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 10:14am

How about one of these. Maybe convert it to thresh other crops. There are still a ton of pull type peanut combines in my area you can buy worth the money. We used to pull the bigger combines with a D-17.

Posted By: Andy in Central IA
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 10:34am

I thought that I had seen some smaller units that were used to harvest test plots. Is that possible?

-------------
Andy Central IA

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 11:31am

Spud wrote:

All the major manufacturers still make a small self propelled combine. They just aren't sold here. They sell them in Latin America, India, etc. There are some smaller european combines too but they have so many features that I can't see them selling cheaply. An example of this would be the John Deere 4435 that was sold in the US and Canada in the 90s.

I believe there would be emisions requirements on engines as well.

I talked to a CLAAS guy about the smaller combine they make:

Mr. Yasnowski,

The CROP TIGER is not available in North America at the moment. Currently,
there is simply not enough demand for this style of small scale combine
harvester in our marketplace. At the moment there are no intentions of
selling the machine here until this changes significantly.

Regards,

**************************************************

T.C. Truesdell
Marketing Coordinator

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 11:35am

[/QUOTE]

Price is the big factor here, and why I asked my last question. What price could we justify on either picker or small combine?

[/QUOTE]

I have noticed how the two row planters and corn pickers have gone up in price--I think that is more evidence of what your saying.

As for price? I guess what can be justified depends on the farmer.

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 11:48am

Get a load of this:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/10362187/2_Row_Planter_John_Deere_With/showimage.html - http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/10362187/2_Row_Planter_John_Deere_With/showimage.html

This is a JD 494 planter hacked to be a two row...

Posted By: LloydCentWi
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 12:17pm

To answer your original question though, No I wouldn't be buying a new combine no matter the size or price.

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: richneu
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 4:05pm

My dad had a small IH pull type combine with an on board engine used for about 100+ acres of grain. It was originally pulled by an H Farmall. We used it for grain only in the 50's to early 70's. It did the job but constantly needed work every spring. It just shook it self to death. It lasted for many years before it was retired. I think the Gleaners were a little more robust, and they were always used for more acres. A refurbished small gleaner would be an alternative to a new. Many Gleaners were used by contract harvesting companies, after they started to need work they traded them in. Many were still usable. Or fixable.

Other than that a foreign built new one sounds like a promising deal. I know Japan has many small farms and have a use for one. To purchase one may be difficult though.

Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 5:44pm

I love that Scranton Prototype AC pull type! A pull-type like that with a 72' cut would be fantastic.

I'm a pull-type kinda guy. The major expense to a SP is the mechanics to pull itself. Engine, drivetrain, etc. My tractor driveline stays in shape, because I depend on it more often, and keep it maintained.

I'd be in the market for a picker before a combine. A thought to further simplify a picker manufacture would be to use hydraulic motors instead of purpose built gear boxes. I have decaker that runs under a pretty heavy load that is hydraulic powered. Standard hydraulic motors that I can pick up locally at a mill supply. Good simple design that doesn't tax the parts counter with special parts.

If you could build one with shileded rollers that could pull double duty on sweet corn and dry ear corn - that would be a good cross market. Pixall made single row pickers at one time, it was around $13,000 and I believe used hydraulic motors as well.

Mark

-------------
There isn't much a WC can't do.

WD's just do it better.

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 5:52pm

Hudsonator wrote:

I love that Scranton Prototype AC pull type! A pull-type like that with a 72' cut would be fantastic.

Mark

Mark,

I'm curous about those hydraulic motors. How do you translate a hydraulic pumps flow rate/psi to the horsepower it could make a hydraulic motor put out??

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 6:24pm

TomYaz wrote:

Mark,

I'm curous about those hydraulic motors. How do you translate a hydraulic pumps flow rate/psi to the horsepower it could make a hydraulic motor put out??

Now you're taxing brain cells I haven't used since college. I'd have to do some studying up to get into hydraulic theory and application.

About all I can tell you now is from practical usage. The motors have a hp rating and a flow rating. The best I can tell, the motors are in series with the highest hp demand motor first, and the lessor drives after it. There is a gauge that reads the psi, which also indicates the amount of hp being used/applied. The greater the resistance by the work, the higher the pressure goes. A by-pass set at the limiting psi takes the place of old mechanical clutches, and in my experiance is a God-send as the whole machine just stops and avoids breakage. Once the by-pass is tripped, all flow diverts and stops the machine. The tractor engine is still laboring furiously however as the by-pass restriction keeps the pressures high. You have no choice but to address the reason for the pressure spike.

The motors turn a constant rpm based on the pump delivery gpm. Gearing is accomplished by sprocket ratios using standard sprockets and roller chain sizes.

Obviously, the more torque you need: the bigger the motor and pump need to be. Just like any engine, the radial distance of the pump and motor gearing dictates the torque output/demand and gpm requirement.

That's probably about as much help as I can be, just about enough to pique your interests and do some research (I kinda need to brush up on this myself!).

Mark

-------------
There isn't much a WC can't do.

WD's just do it better.

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 7:03pm

Hudsonator wrote:

TomYaz wrote:

Mark,

I'm curous about those hydraulic motors. How do you translate a hydraulic pumps flow rate/psi to the horsepower it could make a hydraulic motor put out??

Now you're taxing brain cells I haven't used since college. I'd have to do some studying up to get into hydraulic theory and application.

The motors turn a constant rpm based on the pump delivery gpm. Gearing is accomplished by sprocket ratios using standard sprockets and roller chain sizes.

That's probably about as much help as I can be, just about enough to pique your interests and do some research (I kinda need to brush up on this myself!).

Mark

WAY over my head Mark. Just wondering how much power could a d17 hydraulic pump

could put out? Wonder if would be better to mount a PTO pump instead...

Posted By: John_SWPA
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 8:08pm

I agree about the pickers. Those older ones aren't getting any younger.

As for building a pull-type vs. self propelled, I believe pull-type would be great, if it would fit on a small trailer.

Not to get too far off track. There is a better chance of me winning a gold medal in figure skating than building a prototype combine, so all dreaming aside, I don't see a brand new combine coming to the market in the next 5 years, but after that, who knows?

Look back at production numbers for old combines. http://www.acgleaneronline.com/glequipmentw.html Production numbers used to be in the 10's of thousands, and through the 1980's and 1990's production shifted to much bigger machines and only sold a couple thousand units.

I don't believe you'll ever see a shift with production numbers of smaller pull type combines like you saw back then, but I do believe that a company could sell a few thousand.

I do think there is a demand for them. I think the demand will increase.

10-15 years ago, I could buy a 3 pt 2 bottom plow for about $30-50 at an auction. Last year, I saw them selling for $250-350 regularly. I even took advantage of the situation, getting rid of some extra equipment for a profit. LOL

I know there is a trend with small acreage farms on the rise. Whether or not it is great enough to warrant the need for brand new small combines...

Well, that remains to be seen.

-------------
John-

"If I can't fix it, I'll fix it so no one can."

Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 8:37pm

Originally posted by TomYaz
<DIV>WAY over my head Mark. Just wondering how much power could a d17 hydraulic pump</DIV>
<DIV>could put out? Wonder if would be better to mount a PTO pump instead...</DIV>[/QUOTE

TomYaz
WAY over my head Mark. Just wondering how much power could a d17 hydraulic pump

could put out? Wonder if would be better to mount a PTO pump instead...
[/QUOTE wrote:

Much better to use a pto hydraulic pump that is part of the machine, not the tractor. I don't mind lifting cylinders and running one small hydraulic motor o

Much better to use a pto hydraulic pump that is part of the machine, not the tractor. I don't mind lifting cylinders and running one small hydraulic motor off the tractor - beyond that I'd want the machine to be self contained.

-------------
There isn't much a WC can't do.

WD's just do it better.

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 9:24pm

John_SWPA wrote:

I agree about the pickers. Those older ones aren't getting any younger.

As for building a pull-type vs. self propelled, I believe pull-type would be great, if it would fit on a small trailer.

Not to get too far off track. There is a better chance of me winning a gold medal in figure skating than building a prototype combine, so all dreaming aside, I don't see a brand new combine coming to the market in the next 5 years, but after that, who knows?

Look back at production numbers for old combines. http://www.acgleaneronline.com/glequipmentw.html Production numbers used to be in the 10's of thousands, and through the 1980's and 1990's production shifted to much bigger machines and only sold a couple thousand units.

I don't believe you'll ever see a shift with production numbers of smaller pull type combines like you saw back then, but I do believe that a company could sell a few thousand.

I do think there is a demand for them. I think the demand will increase.

10-15 years ago, I could buy a 3 pt 2 bottom plow for about $30-50 at an auction. Last year, I saw them selling for $250-350 regularly. I even took advantage of the situation, getting rid of some extra equipment for a profit. LOL

I know there is a trend with small acreage farms on the rise. Whether or not it is great enough to warrant the need for brand new small combines...

Well, that remains to be seen.

Hey John, went to that site, they have a pic of my 66 as representative of a 60...oops if you know the person they should fix that...

Just a thought on a "new" draper style 72. Imagine the 72" draper feeding nice and evenly into the cylinder whose cylinder bars were also 72", (they were in the 50 inch range on the original 72) and whose concave bed and spool the bars are on had a bigger diameter. Then a straight thru cleaning shoe that was as wide as the model 90...methinks capacity would be able to handle todays crops....whatya think?

Posted By: Jack(Ky)
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 9:30pm

I think the PTO pump would be the simplest way to go and I think the upkeep on the machine would be a lot easier using hydraulics. I would not consider using the wheels to run the pump because when the wheels stopped so would everything else. If you were pulling it with a late model tractor you might have enough flow to run it. I don't think any of the motors would ever use an enormous amount of pressure because we all know a one row picker could be pulled with about any tractor. Hudsanator, update me on the demand for ear corn. I need an excuse to put some out but I need to have a place to go with it.JP

Posted By: John_SWPA
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2009 at 10:52pm

Draper would be best. especially as a small machine marketed to specialty guys. nothing takes care of small fescue and grass seeds like a draper. If you have guys wanting a machine to use on turf farms, nothing beats a draper. Wider cylinders are a good idea. I have always been impressed by the All-crop head width to cylinder width ratio. I have a Gleaner K with a 13 foot grain head. It has a 27 inch cylinder. That's a ratio of 5.78 : 1.   On an All-Crop 72, if the cylinder is 50 and the head is 72, the ratio would be 1.44:1.   That is important for speed.   Big cleaning shoe... big cylinder... small width head, and you can fly through the field if you have to.   As it is, when running in 150 bpa corn, I can only run about 2 mph. With a big cylinder on a 2 row head, I probably could run 5 mph like a corn picker.

The idea of hydraulic pumps and motors on a machine would kill any hopes of having a low price unit.   Rubber belts with adjustable shieves for speed adjustment are just fine. Perhaps mounting small electric over hydraulic cylinders on the shieves for electronic adjustment might be nice, but it would take away from simplistic reliability. Maybe a few different models? a deluxe?

As it is right now, a small square baler costs around $30-40K.   Having a machine in the same price range would be best.

...and as I have said before, create marketing buzz by labeling it as a horse feed collector, instead of a combine, and you can't go wrong!

-------------
John-

"If I can't fix it, I'll fix it so no one can."

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2009 at 10:16am

John_SWPA wrote:

Draper would be best. especially as a small machine marketed to specialty guys. nothing takes care of small fescue and grass seeds like a draper. If you have guys wanting a machine to use on turf farms, nothing beats a draper. Wider cylinders are a good idea. I have always been impressed by the All-crop head width to cylinder width ratio. I have a Gleaner K with a 13 foot grain head. It has a 27 inch cylinder. That's a ratio of 5.78 : 1.   On an All-Crop 72, if the cylinder is 50 and the head is 72, the ratio would be 1.44:1.   That is important for speed.   Big cleaning shoe... big cylinder... small width head, and you can fly through the field if you have to.   As it is, when running in 150 bpa corn, I can only run about 2 mph. With a big cylinder on a 2 row head, I probably could run 5 mph like a corn picker.

The idea of hydraulic pumps and motors on a machine would kill any hopes of having a low price unit.   Rubber belts with adjustable shieves for speed adjustment are just fine. Perhaps mounting small electric over hydraulic cylinders on the shieves for electronic adjustment might be nice, but it would take away from simplistic reliability. Maybe a few different models? a deluxe?

As it is right now, a small square baler costs around $30-40K.   Having a machine in the same price range would be best.

...and as I have said before, create marketing buzz by labeling it as a horse feed collector, instead of a combine, and you can't go wrong!

Even though a good ratio is important, size of the threshing cavity is important too. Even though the AllCrop has a nice ratio, you can plug it up in heavy crop. Gotta have

a bigger concave bed. If you can engineer it so that you can combine at a pretty fast clip, that would compensate some for small header width.

On hydraulic motors... Even though putting a motor(s) on it will cost, what is the cost of engineering and custom manufacturing the mechanical cylinder adjustment mechanisms and the gearbox? Are there off the shelf gearboxes similar to the AllCrop ones? One shaft in, two out at 90 degrees and a "clutch". Having seperate motors would sure make some nice speed adjustments possible. On a modern combine, what

are the typical speed adjustments?

the gearbox? That

Posted By: amo1977
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2009 at 5:31pm

Dont feel too bad about your old machines fella's.

My neighbor had the trans go out on his "NEW" combine. I think its an A65 instead of R65 or what ever. Pins that hold the smaller gears against the big bull gears that turn the tires slipped out of place. Less than 50hrs.

Just scanned this thread, but has anybody had any experience with a Belarous combine. Ive seen brochures on them about 10 years ago. Coffee shop talk told me once that somebodys neighbor tried one once. Not a BTO, but maybe average or slightly smaller than tried one once and after an average harvest it was sooo worn out they just parked it in the trees. Figured no resale value. Never heard anything about break downs, just wasnt up to snuff.

Didnt know if anybody else knew about these machines?

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2009 at 9:27pm

I for one cannot afford to have a self propelled combine, a pull type would be great and that proto 90 looked real good to me.

The truth on farms near me is they are selling off, for tons of money to speculators. the fields grow shrubs or small trees, the land goes too far fallow to recover very easily and the price is beyond reasonable or farming recoverable. What is going to happen if 20-40-60% of the land ends up like this, where are we going to get the foods and supplies we need to survive? How are we to compete with the big factory farms and when we are gone who will keep their prices in check?

Posted By: Spud
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 8:53am

I know Massey is a dirty word on this site these days but they had a small combine offered in North America. It was built in Brazil and marketed here in the late 80's early 90's. I don't know if any sold or not. People say they want small and simple but don't actually follow through on it.

They still build this unit. A link is below.

http://www.masseyferguson.com.br/portugues/espProdutos.asp?idproduto=570&serie=2 - http://www.masseyferguson.com.br/portugues/espProdutos.asp?idproduto=570&serie=2

Posted By: dschambe
Date Posted: 26 May 2011 at 9:48pm

Check out these new John Deere small combines available in Asia:

http://www.deere.com/zh_CN/JDL/Product/2004/combine_feature_intro/catalog.html

Wonder what would happen if you printed this out, took it to your local dealer, checkbook in hand...

would they still say 'no, we don't need your sale'??

Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 26 May 2011 at 10:34pm

i bought a "k" about 10 years ago, that someone had rebuilt from the ground up one winter. have used it every year since, my wife loves it! guess cuz i bought it for her for our aniversary!! dunno how old it is...but alot of parts interchange off an old "g" combine. which i also have. am running an IH 1440 now, as i couldn't find a complete 6-30 corn head for the "G". i didn't use it last year, but probably will this year for beans, as the header on my 1440 went kuput! and i haven't found another in my price range yet! i knew a fellow in iowa that farmed over 2000 acres...his only combine he used was a jd '45' with a 2-row head! looked kinda weird as it sat in the same shed as the 4x4 tractors and semi's, but he took care of it, and it filled a 50,000 bu. grain bin every year! yeah....he raised seed corn, and after the seed companies came in and harvested what they needed, they left 2 rows every round they made! thus...him only needing a 2 row combine!

Posted By: junkman
Date Posted: 26 May 2011 at 11:11pm

Are these small enough for ya?

that one is a ride on. now for the walk behind.

Posted By: jhid
Date Posted: 26 May 2011 at 11:30pm

I was just about to post that mini combine from cropland biodiesel too but you beat me to it

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red and green are nice for christmas, but orange is all year round
http://www.canadianantiquetractor.com/tractorforum/

Posted By: junkman
Date Posted: 26 May 2011 at 11:34pm

Actually for the hobby farming I do, one of these machines would work just fine. But the pocket book isn't fine.

Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 26 May 2011 at 11:37pm

Back in the days of ear corn harvesting my Dad paid for a John Deere 45, then a 95 and finally a 6600 by doing custom combining. Not everyone could afford a combine, even a pull type back then. Truthfully it would be more cost effective to have 100 acres custom combined than to buy and maintain a new or late model used machine. I know that's not what most of us want to hear.

Posted By: wheatbreeder
Date Posted: 27 May 2011 at 7:05am

Plot combines are not cheap I worked with them for 26 years in wheat breeding and the are not built very heavily built in the I new wintersteiger five ft head cost about 200 k

Morley

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Farm stuff 8050,6690,175,F2,5050,WD

Posted By: victoryallis
Date Posted: 27 May 2011 at 7:55am

If the Class are in Europe they can be brought to the states. There is a guy named Hurst in Pennsylvania that imports tractors from across the pond. Uncles had a pair of Genisis's sent over more features for similar money.

Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 27 May 2011 at 8:28am

Well I guess I have some experience in these matters LOL!

I get a lot of queries for rebuilt all-crops, but very few takers on the price between 6K and 20K depending on the level of work.

I guess some would rather take a chance with an older SP...although that could cost them more in the long run if they get a high maintenance machine.

A lot of guys want rebuilt all-crops but very few want to pay for the work involved.

Good thing about the all crops is a lot of the metal is relatively easy to reproduce.

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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!

Posted By: Byron WC in SW Wi
Date Posted: 28 May 2011 at 7:41am

Dave in il wrote:

Truthfully it would be more cost effective to have 100 acres custom combined than to buy and maintain a new or late model used machine. I know that's not what most of us want to hear.

It's only cost effective if they come and get it when it's ready. I plant my own, spray my own, combine my own and haul my own with my own equipment because a guy my size is WAY down on the list of the custom operators. If you incorporate you losses from not doing things at the right time with the cost of paying them to do it it easily covers my costs. My pay back time on my sprayer was four years, combine two and hauling probably ten if I've done it yet. Hauling is more of a convenience thing. This year I rented and planted 22 acres of beans cause I had the planter to do it. If I get a good yield and price one year will pay for 1/3 of that planters original cost.

Posted By: WD45
Date Posted: 28 May 2011 at 8:58am

For the small farmer buy a F2 or F3 , Case/Int 1640/1660 etc and rebuild them were needed with new sprockets, chain, belts , CYLINDER BARS etc.( one can use weld on hubs and sprockets and modify for most applications)When we ran Gleaner I would replace all the 2050 sprockets with 50 pitch sprockets and run 50 pitch chain.Also use 60H in place of 60 chain for cylinder drive on a K.

These machines are simple to work on and will last for many seasons. Store them in

a shed when not being used.

Maybe just hire a neighbour to do your combing if under a 100 acres.

good luck

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Fred Dunlop, G,B,CA, WC,WF, 3 WD45`s,gas, diesel and LP,U,D10 series III, D12,D14,D15 SERIES II,D17 Series IV in Gas and Diesel ,D19 GAS and D21,170 185,210 ,220 an I-600 8070 fwd, 716H and 1920H

Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 29 May 2011 at 9:19am

Byron WC in SW Wi wrote:

We have two farmers doing custom combining including an auger cart and hauling with a semi, they get their customers done timley or they wouldn't keep getting repeat business.

I don't own a combine right now for my 450 acres, but I do the trucking for my neighbor who does. We trade labor and equpiment use in the fall and provide fuel for our own ground and I pay him a pere acre rate for the combine. We have a few nieghbors around us with some variation of this. There is no way I could afford a CNH 2388 with an 8 row head and a 30' platform without this arraingment.

One thing about an buying an older machine and rebuilding it is not only the cost of parts but what could you be doing with the time you're spending wrenching on it? Could you be out making some money?

It's like anything else, everyone will have a different "right" answer. A lot depends on what your situation is.

Posted By: ranger42
Date Posted: 29 May 2011 at 10:52am

I was told for years from people we couldn't afford to run and maintain a combine for 250 acres. There is noooo way I would rely on a Custom Harvester. Not because we have had a bad experience, but I want to get the crop when it's right. It's different for everybody, but an example would be a field of soybeans that you want to cut a some of the high spots off that have dried down before the lower part of the field...is a custom harvester going to come over for 8-9 acres and then come back? What about spots of replant corn? We ran a K2 for years and then bought a low hour JD6620 and have been running it for 17 years. As far as performance..I have walked through fields harvested by "new" machines and while they may be more efficient in terms of acres/hour I have not been impressed with them getting anymore of the crop in the bin than mine. There are a lot of smaller, low houred, combines still out there.