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John_SWPA 
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 Topic: Who would buy a brand new small combine?
Posted: 17 Nov 2009 at 11:44pm |
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I'm just curious.
Mainly, I'm just fed up with buying small combines that are worn out. I could never afford, nor justify spending a quarter million dollars on a brand new combine. Also, all of the new combines are disturbingly huge. I mean, I would seriously have to spend a ton of money to get my driveways widened to get it around the farm. As it is, my IH400 4 row wide corn planter will barely go down the road without knocking into telephone poles and trees. God help me if I ever meet a car coming the other direction.
I guess I feel like a brand new combine with a 10-13 foot grain head, or even a combine with an 8 foot head that would legally fit on a 14,000 lb deckover trailer would be worth the investment.
Am I the only one?
I know a lot of you guys are farming 3500 acres, or at least a couple hundred, but I am limited to 170, with about 1/2 of that as tillable acreage. It's still a lot of land to work with older machinery. When time is at a premium, reliability concerns me.
I can't say I would see a lot of hobby farmers shelling out cash for a brand new combine, but what if a company made one that was smaller, simpler, and more affordable?
If a company would come out with a smaller capacity combine that had a $30-40K price tag, how many would buy it? Could you justify $30,000 for a machine that you would use on less than 100 acres per year?
I guess there was a reason why the pull-types went away, as did the small machines. Lots of small farms died. Machinery costs make it hard to try farming on a small scale. I guess I could dump $30,000 into an old combine, but I don't think you could ever get an old one as tight as something new.
Just curious if this is something anyone else has considered.
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Andrew(southernIL)
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Posted: 17 Nov 2009 at 11:52pm |
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tomwestky
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 4:28am |
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TomYaz
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 5:47am |
Been thinking the same thing. I think a new pull-type would have a niche market. Would
have to be trailerable.
They stopped making them cause hey werent selling enough. For the large companies,
"enough" may be far more than what a small company would need to sell.
I would think a small company would have most of the parts subcontracted out to avoid all the fab equipment overhead. Basically design, assemble, and sell.
I also wonder about corn pickers as well..
I would love to have my biz make these machines. Oh for the love of CAPITAL....
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DrAllis
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 6:24am |
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There is no market for a small "F2/F3".......by no market I mean the possible sale of enough units to justify the venture. Imagine if AGCO isn't selling any more than 500 new Gleaners a year how many new "F2/F3's" would they sell?? maybe 10 or 15??? and the cost??? it would have to be over $80K. Just rebuild your old....install all new brgs on every shaft and all new belts and chains, etc...we refurbish tractors all the time, so why not an old combine??
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DanWi
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:03am |
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Also thinking of that as I run an M hydro, maybe an F4,M4 orL4, 4 and 6 row heads 13 and 15 foot cutter bars. Who's going to use the machines with the 8 and 12 row heads and 30 foot cutter bars some of them are wore out in 3 to 5 years?
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DMiller
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:10am |
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Byron WC in SW Wi
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:11am |
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Dr. Right. If you could get a new F2/F3 for $80,000 I'd be surprised and order mine right away. Right now a decked out 100 hp tractor is $100,000 and a low run combine would be more complex.
Still. I thought of this in the last year or two and there is a market for it. I think New Holland sells one in Europe that is smaller at least when I checked back then. I think for the time being though the best move is to refurbish your own or hope a company starts doing it.
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Ed in TX
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:17am |
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DMiller
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:18am |
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DMiller
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:23am |
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Hudsonator
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:39am |
 TomYaz wrote:
Been thinking the same thing. I think a new pull-type would have a niche market. Would
have to be trailerable.
They stopped making them cause hey werent selling enough. For the large companies,
"enough" may be far more than what a small company would need to sell.
I would think a small company would have most of the parts subcontracted out to avoid all the fab equipment overhead. Basically design, assemble, and sell.
I also wonder about corn pickers as well..
I would love to have my biz make these machines. Oh for the love of CAPITAL.... |
Those are two things the small farmer needs badly. A 1-2 row picker/sheller and some means of combining soy/small grain/forage seed. Either would be high on my list of purchases.
Mark
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There isn't much a WC can't do.
WD's just do it better.
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Jim Lindemood
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 7:59am |
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Tom Yaz -- You got it right. Something easily trailerable and capable of different crops. There ya go, jump on it. Capital shouldn't stop you - LOL. Serious note - interesting that Claas had the vision to see a need and try to fill it. Got to believe that on the world scene there is a market for such a machine.
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Spud
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 8:38am |
Massey offered a small simple combine I think in the late 80's. It didn't sell well.
Everyone thinks a small combine should be cheap but it won't be. The cost of materials is a small part of the combine cost. It takes just as much time and manpower to bolt small parts together as large parts. It takes the same amount of time to machine a small part as a large one. Better to get an R40 or R42 and keep it maintained.
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LloydCentWi
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 9:03am |
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I've thought about how the future is going to turn out for small farmers. With the high scrap prices that we had the past few years I seen many thousands, hundreds of thousands of tons of old farm machinery getting cut up for scrap. Balers, pickers, combines, tractors etc...Most of the scrap guys don't bother removing knotters and needles from balers, power steering parts from combines or even weights. It's almost like gold fever, but instead it's "weight fever". It does seem like prices for older machinery in usable shape is going up. Balers used to be common at auctions for $100-$400. Now it's hard to find a beat up baler under $400. I see JD 24T's bringing $1500 when just 10 years ago they'd be about $500-$750.
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JJ_Ohio
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 10:26am |
I'm going to an R50 in 1 - 2 years. Love the walker type machines but age is a factor. The newest L3's are 24 years old. How much longer with those before part availability becomes a major factor?
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JJ
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JohnCO
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 10:43am |
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The Claas 60 is a pretty neat machine. Â With the Euro getting so expensive compared to the US dollar there might be a nitch market for small SP combines made here and exported to various other countries. Â Probably hard to compete with labor in asia and India tho.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 11:21am |
If a company understands its market and runs its business appropriatly, anything is possible.
You can still buy wood cookstoves although the market is small.
You can get a self-propelled 14' combine in India. (maybe I should import them)
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john(MI)
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 11:44am |
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There are companies that build and sell small construction equipment, excavators, etc. Maybe they are the company that needs to be addressed on this venture?
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D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
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TomYaz
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 11:47am |
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Bill_MN
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 3:54pm |
what about a test plot combine?
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DMiller
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 4:01pm |
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Rawleigh
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 4:51pm |
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One of the local dealers had a massey test plot combine on its lot this summer. Kinda cute little thing!
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John_SWPA
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 4:57pm |
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I wonder what it would take to import one of those Claas crop tiger 30 machines. I would look into something like that, but if I remember correctly, Claas is a German company. I'm not a big fan of German agri-businesses right now. I'm not saying they are all bad, but they have no respect for North American markets. That's all I'll say about German agri-business.
I'm thinking Henry Ford style is what needs to happen. Take a mix of Henry Ford, toss in Mcdonald's "made for you" and finish it out with Microsoft's marketing strategy.
Ford- Build a combine "model T" style. just the basics, and make it reliable.
McDonald's- Build them to order, in real time, with the resources to build as many as needed.
Microsoft- Market the machines before the bugs are worked out. Hype them up, get lots of attention, and then, after excitement builds, finish the product and make it available.
Henry Ford's only flaw was having children who didn't carry his vision(not calling them dumb, but I suspect they lacked the proper motivation to continue the legacy) Mcdonald's flaw was entering the "made for you" service model without a slow transition, they were never a "made for you" business, and therefore are having a hard time adjusting their entire business model. Microsoft's major malfunction has always been releasing a product that isn't fully developed, while spending millions on marketing. That is not to mention that the entire platform on which the original windows was based was not capable of the type of expansion that it underwent.
So, pick the best of each. Find the market, build something with simple parts that are easily replaceable, and market it to as many potential customers as possible. Use parts that are not specifically engineered for the application. (Ever notice how your new car doesn't have a nut and bolt anymore? You can't go to a hardware store for 90% of the hardware. Everything has a specific "fastener.") In this fashion, parts can be easily gathered to meet the demands if the market demands an increase in production, or likewise, if the market dips, you don't have a lot of specially designed parts taking up warehouse space. Take advantage of the falling price of the US dollar against the euro, and compete globally with a product that fills a niche.
Sounds like a plan.
Now, there's probably a few thousand people that are members of this forum, so everyone send me $50,000 and I can get right on product development. :-) LOL
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bikley
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 5:56pm |
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John_SWPA
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 6:33pm |
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I think that gets a little off point. The point being, to own a new combine with a warranty, and tight new steel that is not fatigued in any way...
Although plot combines are cute, and new, and they would be very good at handling small tracts of land; they are specialized for grain and seed sampling.
My thoughts lean more towards something the size of a Gleaner F or K. I was thinking F4, or K3.
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DMiller
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Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 6:41pm |
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I think I will try to locate a AC 72 sometime early next year, or something similar with a rotary drum feed; but pull type.
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wdallis
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Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 6:35am |
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I'm with Dr. Allis. I would think that there would be a nice business in refurbishing smaller combines, of all colors. Only being familiar with the Gleaners, if you get a somewhat straight combine to start with, then rebuild it from top to bottom, I think you would have a long lasting combine. Remember, a small farmer would be hard pressed to put any more than a 100 hrs on a unit in a year. You could then sell it for $40 or $50k with a bit of a warranty, and hopefully make some money. If I had the proper shop, the time, and the 'stones', I would look at doing it.
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John_SWPA
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Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 7:48am |
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I guess I take a different approach when looking at things, since I restore cars and do autobody collision work as a full time job.
I used to always look for the fixer-uppers in the bunch, and dump cash into them faster than the corn piled in the bin.
There comes a certain point in the life of metal, where it becomes fatigued from constant motion. I think combines have it the worst, since they are off-balanced, rattling, shaking, rolling, and generally constantly being "threshed" by the amount of motion involved in the process of threshing.
That's not to say that every combine is beyond help, but if you throw in a few years (30-40) of general deterioration, along with the fact that they sit still for long periods of time, you get a machine that becomes unreliable.
Where do you stop? Do you tear the entire separator off the chassis? Do you break down the transmissions? Do you rebuild the hydraulic systems, replace all hydraulic lines and hoses, and linkages? What about sheet metal?
At a certain point, you are better off to start completely from scratch, or risk leaving stones unturned.
I'm just saying this to let you know that I have thought about it more than I should have.
I think the frustrating part with a combine is the price of used machines. A lot of times, the price does not reflect teh condition of the machine, and makes the initial investment price too high to justify putting more money into them.
For example, I know of an F2 combine that was sold for $8500 without heads, and within the first 3 years, the owner dumped as much into the machine. In the same, I have seen people on this forum and othe rplaces buying $2500-3500 F2 combines and not spent 10% of that on repairs in the first 3 years. It could boil down to "luck of the draw" but it seems that resale price does not necessarily accurately reflect condition.
When buying a used combine, I look at it the same way as I do anything else that is used. I ask myself, "Why is this machine for sale?" Did the farmer expand production and upgrade to bigger machines? Did he find a great deal on another machine that was too good to pass up? ...or did this machine start causing more problems than it was worth?
It's usually the case. I can picture this person staring at the elevator chain, and thinking, "well, maybe I can squeeze one more year out of it."
You can almost draw a line graph showing the lifespan vs. care of anything from the day it rolls off the showroom and into the customer's garage, to the time when it is deemed scrap metal.
At first, every little scratch and ding hurts the owner more than the machine. The first time in from the field, and he has got a white cloth, wiping every trace of dust from every nook and cranny. Eventually, the "new car smell" wears off, and operation and care becomes mundane. Service and maintenance doesn't falter yet, as the machine is still too good and tight to be mistreated. Then, a time comes when the dirt piles up in thos nooks and crannies, and instead of a white cloth, the tip of a screwdriver is used to dig the dirt out. Surface rust appears on the wear areas during off-season. Suddenly, that hard to reach grease fitting becomes the grease fitting that gets ignored. The machine starts down the slippery slope until it's time to trade in. The second owner doesn't treat it with the same respect as the original owner. In the back of his mind, he is thinking that he wasn't the first to fart in the seat, and since it's already got those bumps and bruises, it doesn't need kid glove care. It's not long before the third and fourth owners continue the trend as hours pile up and service bills pile up. From here, the machine enters the land of no return. Eventually, it winds up in the classifieds with "minor work needed" or else "just recently serviced" in the ad. Did the recent service include everything needed to make it like new, or just enough to get it to make the last few rounds in the field? Did it get patched together just enough to make it worth slightly more in resale value than the machine with "minor work needed?" Has it hit the auction circuit already? How many times did duct tape become a fixture in the cab during harvest?
Lots of unknown answers at this point. and it's usually at this point when they wind up in my lap!
So, that's how I look at things.
I mean, I probably could find a machine and clear out a 40x40 building and just tear it to shreds, put it back with all new parts and maybe have a reliable machine. What's the mark-up on Agco parts these days? LOL
I'm not saying it won't happen. But, compared to a tractor, there's just barely, slightly, a teeny tiny bit more involved in overhauling a combine.
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DMiller
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Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 9:04am |
John,
I was a mechanic for over twenty years when I switched professions, I remember the days looking for 'rebuildables' to take home and repair to a minimum to resell for a few bucks more than my investment, not very good for income but more of a hobby. It is easy to overspend and get overextended as to repairs and you are quite right there s a fatigue limit to all metal machines.
There is a niche market for the smaller conbines but that niche may not be continually profitable for manufacture as once that small niche is filled who will buy the machines? I also agree they need to be building a small combine for those of us that do not need the monsters but hey are looking at bottom line profitability and cannot devote line time to a machine of low return.
It is almost as they expect the small farm to die out.
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