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WD Shooting Flames at High Idle

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KD8NGV View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 Jun 2016 at 7:48pm
Hey all,

So I have been tinkering with my 1951 WD for the last few days.  I bought her a year or two back and she ran great.  I took her home and I changed all the oils in her.  After that ( about a week) she stopped running. The only oil I have yet to change is the engine oil.  After replacing the cap and points and all 4 spark plugs I couldn't start her.  She sat for a bit over a year and I wanted to get her running for the Indiana GOTO.  I tested the spark, and she had it.  I cleaned the carb and put in a carb kit.  After a squirt of starting fluid she ran for a bit.  I adjusted the carb so she would run at an idle. As my I let her run I noticed that it was throwing sparks.  When it shut off hot I could not start it again.  Today I tried to run her at full throttle and when I got to about 75% it started popping and throwing flames out the exhaust.  When I dialed it back, it would even out. I tried this a few times and it did the same thing.  It felt to me like there was more heat coming off the manifold than normal.  I shut it down and wanted to see what you fellas thought.  What should I do next?

Thanks!
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CTuckerNWIL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2016 at 8:00pm
Running lean , they can run hot. You maybe have carbon build up on top the cylinders and it's getting burned out.
 I would run a can of Sea Foam thru the gas and work it hard (like plowing) with maybe a quarter turn open on the main jet.
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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KD8NGV View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KD8NGV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2016 at 8:04pm
I will run a can of sea Foam through it. Where should I initially place the Main Jet?  I don't have a plow or anything to run her hard, just running.  I have a plow but its a 3 point and my WD has the non-snap coupler hitch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SHAMELESS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2016 at 10:46pm
buy a cigar, quik way to light it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2016 at 10:46pm
Not good enough spark to burn the fuel. Adjust timing. Bad coil or condenser.   MACK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corbinstein Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2016 at 6:31am
Drive it at night and have some fun!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2016 at 6:44am
My initial thoughts are the same as Mack's.

Have you checked the timing.

If way slow they will go to melt down hot when worked, or at least my JD did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jange01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2016 at 12:00pm
Check ignition timing. May be late (retarded). Ideally check and set timing at full no load high rpm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KD8NGV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2016 at 8:54pm
OK, so here is what has happened and what I did.

I timed the tractor to the F mark on the flywheel.  I then got the tractor to run, but it ran very bad and very hot.  After making some adjustments it went back to running very rough. The manifold got very hot.  After still shooting flames when you come up on the throttle we shut it off and it dieseled.  I had to shut off the fuel and blow the throttle all the way down. 

So we did this:

Checked the Compression:  1-60, 2-20, 3-55, 4-60
Adjusted valve clearance to 0.012
Checked Compression again: 1:60, 2-50, 3-50, 4-60
Timed according to the book.
--Took Cylinder 1 to compression
--Saw F mark and disregarded as book said
--Stopped on what I believe is the TDC line
--Adjusted Distributor so that the point just open.
Put everything back together and tried to turn her over
Nothing.  Even tried a spray of ether.  Nothing other than turns over faster.

Ideas?

Checked Plug gap and they are all new plugs.

Thanks!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robacpuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2016 at 9:08pm
Sounds like the valves need reseating. Take head off and grind valves or lap them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KD8NGV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2016 at 9:10pm
What does the compression need to be?
Is that something I take to a shop to do?  I have never pulled a head or have done a valve job before.

Thank you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2016 at 10:13pm
problbley needs valves done .       but a cylinder leak down test will tell whats leaking and how bad
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2016 at 10:17pm
Did you check the timing wide open or idle? Did you check compression with all plugs out and a good battery and charger on battery? 6 or 12 volt? Is the advance in distributed free?      MACK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dawntreader74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2016 at 11:58pm
it may be 180 off on timing mark' it will run but sure will get ext'' very hot' its out of time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Burnett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 3:06am
Did you check the valve setting? For some reason people seem to want to set the valves too tight so they don't close up tight.On those tractors you need to have some noticable gap between the rocker and the valve.I just bought a D10 that someone had adjusted the valves so several of them weren't closing and I've run into that more than a few times over the years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred in Pa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 6:23am
How hot of spark do u have .Where did you get points and cond. .I found that Agco and any other after market points and cond. are junk ,Buy Blue streak at Auto parts or go to NAPA for points and cond. .

He who dies with the most toys is,
nonetheless ,still dead.
If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote automaticdave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 7:07am
Check the firing order first !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 7:11am
I had a WD that acted like that. Turned out to be two scored sleeves and pistons due to wrist pins being installed wrong. I figure the pins were rubbing on the sleeve to get red hot and causing back firing and rough running, especially at higher engine speed. And no amount of adjusted improved anything. I was pretty disappointed to see that when I finally took the head off.
-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KD8NGV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 7:47am
Run a cylinder leak down test will tell whats leaking and how bad
--->  I will get that tool from my friend and run that test.
Did you check the timing wide open or idle?
---> I set timing according to the marks on the flywheel.  I have not been able to start the tractor since.
Did you check compression with all plugs out and a good battery and charger on battery?
---> I checked with all plugs out and by hand cranking the tractor
 6 or 12 volt?
---> 6
Is the advance in distributed free?
---> How do I check?
Did you check the valve setting?
---> I set them all to 0.012 cold
Where did you get points and cond.
---> Points were from NAPA, Condenser was also from there
Check Firing Order.
--->I have 1 on 7 o'clock position
-----2  on 10 o'clock
-----4 on 2 o'clock
-----3 on 5 o'clock

Thanks!



Edited by KD8NGV - 14 Jun 2016 at 7:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 7:54am
compression needs to be checked spinning with a good starter for best results and you should spin the engine about the same speed and duration for each cylinder. If you put a spoonful or so of oil in the cylinder and the compression goes up by quite a bit from before adding the oil, it shows your rings are worn.

Set your valves at .015 cold.


Edited by Lonn - 14 Jun 2016 at 7:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 7:59am
Find #1 TDC and then check to see if the distributor rotor is at or near the #1 lug of distributor cap. To find #1 TDC slowly crank the engine over with your thumb over the spark plug hole until your feel compression then continue turning over until TDC mark is lined up on flywheel. Both valves should be closed with .015 clearance.

You got a book?


Edited by Lonn - 14 Jun 2016 at 8:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 8:02am
Opps, I see you seem to already know how to find TDC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KD8NGV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 8:32am
And just to confirm:
The #1 lug is the point at which the wire from the coil comes into the distro.
The TDC mark is AFTER the F mark on the flywheel ( a few inches away after you pass it )

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KD8NGV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 8:35am
Lonn, tonight I will do the oil compression test and a dry compression both with the battery and also set the clearance to .015.  And yes, I do have the book.  it is actually the original to the tractor with the sale sheet and check off in it.  I am blessed!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 8:47am
I'm with Automatic Dave. CHECK THE FIRING ORDER. You may have a wire crossed. My experience with these AC engines running hot is either they have a plugged radiator or the timing is way off. They don't have a characteristic of running hot to start off with even on the hottest day of the year working. I'm thinking you have a couple problems here. We'll drop the plugged radiator assumption because I don't think that applies here. First, you need to do a compression test spinning the engine over with the starter motor. Hand crankin' it ain't gonna cut it for accuracy and comparibility for compression. With 20 psi in a cylinder, the engine shouldn't even run. If it runs occasionally, there's gotta' be more compression than 20 psi in there. Flames out the stack- could mean to rich a mix and the unburned fuel is igniting in the muffler stack causing the flames. Black smoke would also indicate an overfueling problem along with the fireworks out the stack. If the manifold glows, that's usually a lean mix issue. MAKE SURE THE TIMING IS CORRECT USING TDC if Distributor fired. Make sure it has fresh fuel in it. Crappy fuel will make it run like crap and do crazy things also.
Steve@B&B
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 9:09am
A simple first check for centrifugal advance working is with the distributor cap off, turn the rotor in the direction it turns when running. It should allow advancing 15 or 20 degrees and when released must snap back to the static position. If the weights or springs are broken it will move but not snap back. If the pivot is rusted fast it won't move at all. Sometimes the maintenance for that inner mechanism is neglected, needs a drop of oil into the felt in the hollow shaft under the rotor every year or two.

Then with it running and a timing light the ignition should be close to top dead center at idle and must be more advanced the faster the engine is running.

Lots of flame out the exhaust is a sign of potentially retarded ignition timing or exhaust valves leaking or both. Retarded timing can be hard on exhaust valves.

Gerald J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dawntreader74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 8:43pm
take the cap off an see if number 1 is pointing at number 1 cyl' front of motor. you can be on timing mark an still be 180 off. thank it's 1243' fire order. it will get hot an kick out the pipe if it's not in time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KD8NGV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2016 at 3:15pm
Number 1 on the cap and rotor should be at around 6-7 o'clock or at 1 o clock?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2016 at 3:31pm
Depends on how the last person assembled the distributor to the engine. To be factory right, staring down at the cap from behind, #1 should be at the 10 or 11 o'clock position. But it can be anywhere depending on where the previous "mechanic" set it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KD8NGV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2016 at 3:48pm
How can I tell how it is set?
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