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Tier 4 emissions |
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Ryan Renko
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Edwardsville, I Points: 2315 |
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Posted: 24 Feb 2011 at 7:37pm |
I see that case ih is going to use the DEF fluid on their tractors as Agco is going with. John Deere is using a different system. One question, is this new technology for all diesel engines from the small ones on up or just the big boys?? Ryan
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Gerald J.
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636 |
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Some pickups are using the technology. And some say Deere won't meet the next step in 2013 without DEF.
Gerald J. |
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Roddo
Orange Level Joined: 16 Jul 2010 Location: Brant, Ontario Points: 466 |
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The 2011 Ford Super Duty is using it. Sure has a lot of customers scratching their heads. I guess the salesman never explained it well enough....
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AdamA
Silver Level Joined: 08 May 2010 Location: Missouri Points: 115 |
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Case is using SCR on 100+hp and egr on the smaller ones,just attended a very informative class on emissions by Case IH seems SCR is the way too go....John Deere will be playing catch up again.
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57'D-17,78'185,83'6080,76'7040,84'8030 FWA.02'Dodge cummins
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Byron WC in SW Wi
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Wisconsin Points: 1635 |
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I sure hate the idea of having to buy one more fluid to put in a tractor or truck to have it run.
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Lonn
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29773 |
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AGCO seems to already have an SCR system. What is the difference between the DEF system that uses urea and the SCR system? Or are they the same thing? I'm not up on these engines at all so can someone explain both systems? Thanks.
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AdamA
Silver Level Joined: 08 May 2010 Location: Missouri Points: 115 |
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SCR system uses urea to treat the exhaust after the engine,engine is tuned for maximum power and then exhaust is treated for high nitrous oxide,no restricting particulate filter,or hot exhaust being put back into the engine.EGR system recirulates 25-30% of exhaust back through the engine and then filters the exhaust through the DPF(Diesel Particulate Filter) After 8-10 hours of running DPF "burns out" by injecting diesel right into the exhaust stream,fuel consuption goes sky high,you lose power,and no matter what your salesman says it takes 30-45 minutes too finish the burn,engine has too run at high idle during this time and exhaust gets REALLY hot (1300-1500F) also service intervals are shortend because of all the soot that is recirculated through the engine,and cooling system is 25-30% larger.They say a SCR engine is still about 10% cheaper too run even with the added cost of DEF fluid because fuel encomy is so much better and you don't have the shortend service intervals.(not too mention the risk of setting your shiny new combine on fire with 1400f exhaust!!)
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57'D-17,78'185,83'6080,76'7040,84'8030 FWA.02'Dodge cummins
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MUM FARMER
Silver Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 95 |
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Less fuel efficent means they need to drill for more oil need to refine more oil need to float more oil need to truck more oil but the ppms out your exhaust are less!!! oh and the additive that is used is Pig pee read the msds safety sheet. This is progress ???? oh and none of the above process pollute WHAT A JOKE and the long term parts and maintenence is gona be real expensive Just my take on the game, and oh by the way the junk sicence behind this carbon tax nonsense all plants need carbondioxide to live and inturn give offf oxygen for us to breathe cant wait for the tier 5
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skipwelte
Orange Level Joined: 29 Oct 2009 Location: Anthon, Iowa Points: 723 |
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Right now in the construction line we are at interum tier 4, or it4. deere is using the egr and partiulate filter, they are also saying that to get to tier 4 which is coming in a couple of years they will be using the diesel fluid with the particulate filter. Everyone is scrambling, CAT abandoned the OTR truck engine market partially due to not meeting emissions. All the eng mfgs are claiming their system is the best, I dont believe any of them cause I know the problems weve had with tier III and nobody is workin on a fix, just pointing fingures at everyone else.
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wheelbilly
Bronze Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 51 |
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The only real negative I have heard on SCR is that urea fluid needs to be protected from freezing temps.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 29578 |
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On trucks the Urea/DEF tank is engine coolant coil heated, the tractors I would think should be the same. I too am not a big fan of adding another fluid to use diesel and the expense to do so as the fuel is already high enough, the DEF in the Ford system is considered to last one tank to an oil change, same for Dodge although they put the caveat the fluid may exhaust quicker with heavier load continuous operations.
The fluid at our GM dealer is $34/5 gallon pail, at the local fuel stop the fluid is pump feed and $4.73/gallon, trucking costs have to adjust for the added expense. Edited by DMiller - 25 Feb 2011 at 10:55am |
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Dale-OH
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: SW OHIO Points: 879 |
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We have 10+ Agco/ MF Tractors running with the DEF/SCR system and get along great. As mentioned it has a heating element in the tank and has up to I believe 40 minutes from start up to start injecting DEF which is almost double the time to thaw from a solid. Also have an uncle with a New Duramax that uses this system. As far as I can see this is a better choice than the regeneration and filter system, we have a semi with the Cat C-15 with all of that stuff on it and it has been in the shop I believe 5 times since the first of this year, mostly due to the emission set up.
In tractors we have seen an increase in fuel efficiency. The amount of DEF used does increase with load.
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AdamA
Silver Level Joined: 08 May 2010 Location: Missouri Points: 115 |
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I Don't believe all the global warming crap either,but emission control is here too stay we might as educate ourselves,because it has too be dealt with on any new equipment. |
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57'D-17,78'185,83'6080,76'7040,84'8030 FWA.02'Dodge cummins
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Eldon (WA)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Spokane, WA Points: 7765 |
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I thought the DEF was injected after the engine...how does that improve efficiency? I'm with MuM FaRmer....all this crap doesn't make any sense....
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AdamA
Silver Level Joined: 08 May 2010 Location: Missouri Points: 115 |
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My Case dealer said they will have def fluid availible in bulk soon for about $2.50-$3.00 per gallon, 27 gal. tank on a 200hp tractor sposed too run about 2 tanks of fuel.Also any new case tractor comes with 275gal tote of DEF fluid. |
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57'D-17,78'185,83'6080,76'7040,84'8030 FWA.02'Dodge cummins
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AdamA
Silver Level Joined: 08 May 2010 Location: Missouri Points: 115 |
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SCR systems are more efficient because engine is tuned for maximum power regardless of NOX emission urea takes care of that afterwards,also they run cooler with more power per displacment because you're not recyling any exhaust. |
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57'D-17,78'185,83'6080,76'7040,84'8030 FWA.02'Dodge cummins
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AllisFreak MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 07 Dec 2009 Location: Minnesota Points: 1500 |
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I wonder if this will speed up the process of trying to weed out all our old polluter diesels from the past? I'm nervous parts availability is going to go south soon.
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'49 A-C WD, '51 A-C WD, '63 A-C D17 Series III, 1968 A-C One-Seventy, '82 A-C 6060, '75 A-C 7040, A-C #3 sickle mower, 2 A-C 701 wagons, '78 Gleaner M2
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Creek Jenkins
Orange Level Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Northern Minn Points: 812 |
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I work with engine OEMs, we design and build heavy duty cooling systems and I agree with Adam, SCR is the better way to go from what I have seen. Tier 4 interim is in effect now up to 750hp, over that is still Tier 2, at least for the next few years. My theory is that we may see the return of the industrial gasoline engine because diesel engines are getting more and more costly to run and maintain. Who knows? Maybe someone will bring out a small tractor with a gas engine....... cheers, Creek |
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wekracer
Orange Level Joined: 13 Oct 2009 Location: Tebbetts, MO Points: 1587 |
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Bobcat dealer told me last week that replacement parts for any diesel powered machine without a tier engine will be outlawed after tier 4 is in effect. he didn't say where he got his info but it's hard to believe. that would put me out of business. my newest tractor is an 8050. and i won't go quietly either.
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Gerald J.
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636 |
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California is already requiring upgrades to existing equipment with new engines the only accepted upgrade.
Gerald J. |
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DanWi
Orange Level Access Joined: 18 Sep 2009 Location: wttn Points: 1706 |
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What about when these engines just get run for a short period of time in winter and they never run long enough to get warm say like just putting a bale of hay in the feedre every day for the cows?
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farmer0_1
Orange Level Joined: 06 Dec 2009 Location: cornelius or Points: 592 |
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this has been coming for years. my understanding is that the blu tec came from vw . i think it is wayyyy better than more controls that they can't keep working. going to have to get a team of horses on the farm again.
Edited by farmer0_1 - 25 Feb 2011 at 11:22pm |
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7060
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Missouri Points: 1142 |
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My 2011 uses the DEF and it regenerates the exhaust every 700 miles so im told. Im not real crazy about putting all this crap on the trucks and tractors, but like my grandpa said were keeping these idots with a job.
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SHAMELESS
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: EAST NE Points: 29486 |
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<<< thinks farmer 0-1 is right! and looks like china will get all of our equipment! I wonder how much i could make...becoming a urea cop??
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DougG
Orange Level Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Location: Mo Points: 7946 |
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This was a thread on AG TALK a few times , CA + TX had a Cash for Clunckers in the Ag equipment ,said it payed great on old tractors but you had to replace them with a newer one to meet the standards - and they are xpensive ; older equipment had to be turned down in the factory stock settings to stop the smoke etc ; some are being fitted\ useing the urea system ; how many old diesels are out there running everyday in construction, farming, logging etc ???? A bunch - once again more BS trying to make it harded on the working man ; parts will always be around just cost more to keep the old stuff chugging
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