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Tier 4 emissions

Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26267
Printed Date: 27 May 2024 at 6:13pm
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Topic: Tier 4 emissions
Posted By: Ryan Renko
Subject: Tier 4 emissions
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2011 at 7:37pm
I see that case ih is going to use the DEF fluid on their tractors as Agco is going with. John Deere is using a different system. One question, is this new technology for all diesel engines from the small ones on up or just the big boys?? Ryan



Replies:
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2011 at 8:26pm
Some pickups are using the technology. And some say Deere won't meet the next step in 2013 without DEF.

Gerald J.


Posted By: Roddo
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2011 at 8:42pm
The 2011 Ford Super Duty is using it.  Sure has a lot of customers scratching their heads.  I guess the salesman never explained it well enough....


Posted By: AdamA
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2011 at 9:09pm
Case is using SCR on 100+hp and egr on the smaller ones,just attended a very informative class on emissions by Case IH seems SCR is the way too go....John Deere will be playing catch up again.

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57'D-17,78'185,83'6080,76'7040,84'8030 FWA.02'Dodge cummins


Posted By: Byron WC in SW Wi
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 7:01am
I sure hate the idea of having to buy one more fluid to put in a tractor or truck to have it run.  


Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 7:17am
AGCO seems to already have an SCR system. What is the difference between the DEF system that uses urea and the SCR system? Or are they the same thing? I'm not up on these engines at all so can someone explain both systems? Thanks.

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Posted By: AdamA
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 8:06am
SCR system uses urea to treat the exhaust after the engine,engine is tuned for maximum power and then exhaust is treated for high nitrous oxide,no restricting particulate filter,or hot exhaust being put back into the engine.EGR system recirulates 25-30% of exhaust back through the engine and then filters the exhaust through the DPF(Diesel Particulate Filter) After 8-10 hours of running DPF "burns out" by injecting diesel right into the exhaust stream,fuel consuption goes sky high,you lose power,and no matter what your salesman says it takes 30-45 minutes too finish the burn,engine has too run at high idle during this time and exhaust gets REALLY hot (1300-1500F) also service intervals are shortend because of all the soot that is recirculated through the engine,and cooling system is 25-30% larger.They say a SCR engine is still about 10% cheaper too run even with the added cost of DEF fluid because fuel encomy is so much better and you don't have the shortend service intervals.(not too mention the risk of setting your shiny new combine on fire with 1400f exhaust!!)

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57'D-17,78'185,83'6080,76'7040,84'8030 FWA.02'Dodge cummins


Posted By: MUM FARMER
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 8:34am
Less fuel efficent means they need to drill for more oil need  to refine more oil need to float more oil need to truck more oil but the ppms out your exhaust are less!!! oh and the additive that is used is Pig pee read the msds safety sheet. This is progress ???? oh and none of the above process pollute WHAT A JOKE and the long term parts and maintenence is gona be real expensive  Just my take on the game, and oh by the way the junk sicence behind this carbon tax nonsense all plants need carbondioxide to live and inturn give offf oxygen for us to breathe    cant wait for the tier 5 


Posted By: skipwelte
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 9:04am
Right now in the construction line we are at interum tier 4, or it4.  deere is using the egr and partiulate filter, they are also saying that to get to tier 4 which is coming in  a couple of years they will be using the diesel fluid with the particulate filter.   Everyone is scrambling, CAT abandoned the OTR truck engine market partially due to not meeting emissions.  All the eng mfgs are claiming their system is the best,   I dont believe any of them cause I know the problems weve had with tier III and nobody is workin on a fix, just pointing fingures at everyone else.     


Posted By: wheelbilly
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 9:22am

The only real negative I have heard on  SCR is that urea fluid needs to be protected from freezing temps.

 



Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 10:55am
On trucks the Urea/DEF tank is engine coolant coil heated, the tractors I would think should be the same.  I too am not a big fan of adding another fluid to use diesel and the expense to do so as the fuel is already high enough, the DEF in the Ford system is considered to last one tank to an oil change, same for Dodge although they put the caveat the fluid may exhaust quicker with heavier load continuous operations.

The fluid at our GM dealer is $34/5 gallon pail, at the local fuel stop the fluid is pump feed and $4.73/gallon, trucking costs have to adjust for the added expense.


Posted By: Dale-OH
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 11:14am
We have 10+ Agco/ MF Tractors running with the DEF/SCR system and get along great.  As mentioned it has a heating element in the tank and has up to I believe 40 minutes from start up to start injecting DEF which is almost double the time to thaw from a solid.  Also have an uncle with a New Duramax that uses this system.  As far as I can see this is a better choice than the regeneration and filter system, we have a semi with the Cat C-15 with all of that stuff on it and it has been in the shop I believe 5 times since the first of this year, mostly due to the emission set up.
In tractors we have seen an increase in fuel efficiency.  The amount of DEF used does increase with load. 


Posted By: AdamA
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 11:27am

I Don't believe all the global warming crap either,but emission control is here too stay we might as educate ourselves,because it has too be dealt with on any new equipment.



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57'D-17,78'185,83'6080,76'7040,84'8030 FWA.02'Dodge cummins


Posted By: Eldon (WA)
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 11:28am
I thought the DEF was injected after the engine...how does that improve efficiency?  I'm with MuM FaRmer....all this crap doesn't make any sense....

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Posted By: AdamA
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 11:31am

My Case dealer said they will have def fluid availible in bulk soon for about $2.50-$3.00 per gallon, 27 gal. tank on a 200hp tractor sposed too run about 2 tanks of fuel.Also any new case tractor comes with 275gal tote of DEF fluid.



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57'D-17,78'185,83'6080,76'7040,84'8030 FWA.02'Dodge cummins


Posted By: AdamA
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 11:34am

SCR systems are more efficient because engine is tuned for maximum power regardless of NOX emission urea takes care of that afterwards,also they run cooler with more power per displacment because you're not recyling any exhaust.



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57'D-17,78'185,83'6080,76'7040,84'8030 FWA.02'Dodge cummins


Posted By: AllisFreak MN
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 4:42pm
I wonder if this will speed up the process of trying to weed out all our old polluter diesels from the past? I'm nervous parts availability is going to go south soon.

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'49 A-C WD, '51 A-C WD, '63 A-C D17 Series III, 1968 A-C One-Seventy, '82 A-C 6060, '75 A-C 7040, A-C #3 sickle mower, 2 A-C 701 wagons, '78 Gleaner M2


Posted By: Creek Jenkins
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 5:25pm

I work with engine OEMs, we design and build heavy duty cooling systems and I agree with Adam, SCR is the better way to go from what I have seen.  Tier 4 interim is in effect now up to 750hp, over that is still Tier 2, at least for the next few years.  My theory is that we may see the return of the industrial gasoline engine because diesel engines are getting more and more costly to run and maintain.  Who knows?  Maybe someone will bring out a small tractor with a gas engine.......

cheers,
Creek


Posted By: wekracer
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 5:56pm
Bobcat dealer told me last week that replacement parts for any diesel powered machine without a tier engine will be outlawed after tier 4 is in effect.  he didn't say where he got his info but it's hard to believe.   that would put me out of business.  my newest tractor is an 8050.  and i won't go quietly either.


Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 6:03pm
California is already requiring upgrades to existing equipment with new engines the only accepted upgrade.

Gerald J.


Posted By: DanWi
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 10:13pm
What about when these engines just get run for a short period of time in winter and they never run long enough to get warm say like just putting a bale of hay in the feedre every day for the cows?


Posted By: farmer0_1
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 11:22pm
this has been coming for years.  my understanding is that the blu tec came from vw . i think it is wayyyy better than more controls that they can't keep working.  going to have to get a team of horses on the farm again.  


Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2011 at 12:21am
My 2011 uses the DEF and it regenerates the exhaust every 700 miles so im told. Im not real crazy about putting all this crap on the trucks and tractors, but like my grandpa said were keeping these idots with a job.


Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2011 at 2:17am
<<< thinks farmer 0-1 is right! and looks like china will get all of our equipment! I wonder how much i could make...becoming a urea cop??


Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2011 at 4:07am
This was a thread on AG TALK  a few times , CA + TX  had a Cash for Clunckers in the Ag equipment ,said it payed great on old tractors but you had to replace them with a newer one to meet the standards - and they are xpensive ; older equipment had to be turned down in the factory stock settings to stop the smoke etc ; some are being fitted\ useing the urea system ; how many old diesels are out there running everyday in construction, farming, logging etc ???? A bunch - once again more BS  trying to make it harded on the working man ;  parts will always be around just cost more to keep the old stuff chugging



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