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Pertronix Ignition Quit Again

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79fordblake View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79fordblake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2017 at 9:07pm
I forgot to update this. Pertronix sent a new kit. I checked all wires and grounds. Got a good switch and plug wires from Steve. Not even a month of use and it burned out again today while mowing!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2017 at 11:20pm
Wow Blake! It would seem that there must be something with your tractor that causes this.What that is???? I don't have a clue. Guy hates to replace everything starting over but there must be some component responsible for this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LeonR2013 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2017 at 11:32pm
Does your 45 have the ground wire from the switch box to the frame? It needs it if it doesn't. Do you have a one wire alt. on it? Try putting a ground wire from the alt to the frame. I agree with others that it seems like a ground problem top me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 5:51am
Did you change the coil?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 7:30am
It sure sounds like a 'random current spike', sigh...
Those ignition units SHOULD be protected from that, though they aren't. Cost is less than a buck and I don't understand WHY Petronix doesn't do it.
The alternator could(is ?)  be creating the spike. Try adding a capacitor( points condensor) on the +12 output to gnd. It might 'filter' the spike IF that's where it's coming from...

Jay

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 7:36am

Jay, what about a clamping diode?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79fordblake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 7:38am
Yep I already have those two ground wires. Yes its a one wire alternator. I had been mowing about a hour. Started to miss a little then got really bad and throwing flames out the muffler and quit. Tried to start it nothing. Let it set awhile nothing. Walked to house to get a few tools and the points. Fired right up after putting them back in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 7:52am
That sounds like my d15. I ended up just rebuilding the distrubitor with new sleeves and fixed the springs and the likes. In the end I got the points out and replace them about twice a year. I can't figure out what the issue is on my d15 but my d17 has had a pertronix kit for about 5 years and works great. No idea why.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79fordblake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 8:33am
Dan this is on my fresh engine new and rebuilt everything.
For the heck of it I reinstalled the Pertronix this morning to make sure it was dead. Nope no start. Put points back in again and fired right up.
Would a inline fuse cause this problem? I have a fuse from battery to switch. I'm running 295 Autolites do I need different plugs? I'm at a loss. Spent quite a bit of money changing stuff and same problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 8:57am
Originally posted by Brian Jasper co. Ia Brian Jasper co. Ia wrote:

Jay, what about a clamping diode?
A clamping diode would burn out too unless it was current limited. A limiting resistor would essentially take away any clamping properties. A varistor might work if it is close enough to the Pertronix that the feed wire would have a bit of resistance itself. You don't know what your peak voltages are unless you have a meter with a peak/hold function. In my distant past at work I had a high quality Fluke that did this. It costs a pretty penny. To be honest I'd replace the alternator. If there are any over voltages, the alternator would be the source.
 
ETA: Are you taking the voltage for the ignition switch from inside the box before your ammeter? If so, move this wire to the battery.  Fuse this wire right after the battery. The battery will act as a large voltage dump, which might cut down on your spikes.
 


Edited by DougS - 10 Jun 2017 at 9:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 4:41pm
found this...somewhere on the web...
Another possible cause for a problem with an Ignitor is if there is a bad ground (earth) between the breaker plate on which the module mounts in the distributor and battery negative (or battery positive in a positive earth system).  With a digital ohmmeter  set on its most sensitive scale, measure the resistance between the Ignitor mount plate and the battery negative post on a negative ground system or the battery positive post on a positive ground system .  Measure to the battery post itself, not the connector on the ground cable.  If it is 0.2 ohms or more, you have a bad ground.  Check for corrosion at the connections of the ground strap between the breaker plate and the distributor housing, and also at the battery itself or where the negative battery cable attaches to the block.  Another possible resistance source is the distributor hold-down clamp which is the electrical connection between the distributor and block or intake manifold.  If engine parts have recently been painted there may not be a good ground.  There is typically a small ground strap between the points plate and the distributor housing.  Be sure that is attached securely and free of corrosion at the contact areas.  0.2 ohms may sound like a negligible amount of resistance, and in a steady state circuit it often is.  But in an ignition circuit where the current is switched on and off many times a second, the transient effects of the 0.2 ohms are significant and can prevent an Ignitor from firing normally.  As the chief engineer at PerTronix says, "If you don't have a good ground, you might as well go in and watch television."

I'm NOT saying this is why it's ahppening, just something else to look at, in case you haven't already.
I had a quick look at PerTronix website,,they say 8-16 volts... so I'd add 18 volt zener/resistor or transzorbs or varistors to quelch the EMI. It would be 'interesting' to disconnect the alternator wiring and run the tractor for 2-3 hours and see what happens......

Jay
BTW I have no odea HOW to get 'regular' font back......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrianC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 4:48pm
I remember what a seasoned tractor mechanic told me about the Pertronix and the Ford N series. He said he had many ("100%") failures with the front mounted distributor, but very few with the side mounted distributor. He had no answer as to why.

I would replace the alternator at this point. Relatively cheap to do. If that doesn't fix it, you have a backup alternator.

When electronics won't work right, poor grounding is the usual suspect. I might be tempted to run a ground wire to the distributor itself. Historically, the distributor replaced the magneto, my C magneto has a gasket (= an insulator) between the mag and mounting flange. Wonder if the battery powered distributor unit has that gasket. Does a Pertronix install require the distributor to be grounded well? Just speculating.

Good luck, let us know what it is when you figure it out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrianC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 5:00pm
Hey look at that, what Jay said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79fordblake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 9:13pm
I really doubt Pertronix will replace it again. Not sure I even want one anymore. I'll try the things y'all said but without another module I won't know if it helped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill_MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 9:55pm
Are you using solid core plug wires or modern carbon spiral wound wires? The conventional wisdom is you NEED solid core on old tractors, this is only true with magnetos and to a lesser extent with distributor. With the EI you should use carbon core suppression wires and resistor spark plugs. Be absolutely certain the resistance on your coil is correct also, I would highly recommend a matching Pertronix Flame Thrower. A 4 cylinder engine with 12V needs 3.0 ohm, 6V needs 1.5 ohm. I've run a 6V and now a 12V ignitor on my WD with all of the above and Flame Thrower plug wires and never had a single problem.


Edited by Bill_MN - 11 Jun 2017 at 3:19pm
1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2017 at 4:34am
You have the ohms backward, Bill.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill_MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2017 at 3:20pm
Agh, you're right Doug. Reading directly from the chart as I type but sometimes me brain doesn't listen too good
1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2017 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Bill_MN Bill_MN wrote:

Agh, you're right Doug. Reading directly from the chart as I type but sometimes me brain doesn't listen too good
I asked if the coil was replaced. No reply. A coil can ohm good until it heats up or may otherwise have an intermittent short.  New, less than a year old, works fine otherwise... none of these mean it's a good coil. The problem could be one of many things.  Unless you have a peak hold meter or an oscilloscope, you won't see those peaks. Sometimes the problem rears its head when things get hot. My problems usually reared their heads because of the cold. At least the equipment I had was usually small enough that I could put it in the freezer for a couple of hours. Sometimes you can CAREFULLY warm up a coil with a torch, held a long ways away from the coil. The cheap/easy fix is to replace the alternator with a used 3-wire from a junkyard, a good used coil (Beware, some automotive "12 volt" coils were really 6 volt coils fed with resistance wire), and hook the ignition switch directly to the battery. To replace the Pertronix now would be dooming the unit to the trash can.
 
ETA: Go to a junkyard and pull a 3-wire of the same frame size you have now. I'd shoot for a CS121 or CS130. Stick with an early 80s GM that does not have a 130D alternator. Pull the connector too, cutting the wires a good 6 inches from the connector. Wire this alternator as a one-wire, but remember which wire is the "L" terminal. Start the tractor, rev it a little, then touch this "L" wire to that BAT terminal on the alternator. The alternator should start charging and will keep charging after you remove this wire. While at the junkyard, find a good old real 12 volt coil and replace yours. Run it a few weeks like this, remembering to touch the "L" wire after you start the tractor. If everything keeps working, check back for instructions on how to wire that "L" terminal. It's not that hard.
 
 
 


Edited by DougS - 11 Jun 2017 at 4:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2017 at 4:10pm
Blake I don't know what to tell you. On my d15 I just gave up and run points. For some reason my points don't last that well either but I can't figure out what is wrong. It is a complete rebuild and I have gone so far as to swap most of the part with my d17 that the pertronix kit works perfectly in. The nearest I can figure I have a bad wire crimp end somewhere on my d15 but I can't find it and a couple sets of points a year seems cheap right now. Just got bigger problems to deal with here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2017 at 10:08am
There are other ways to get the benefits of electronic ignition. A Ford TFI module can be triggered off points, you just need the module mounted to a good heatsink. Mid 90's F series remote mounted them remotely on a nice aluminum heatsink. It works like Dave Kirk's Point Saver for Kohler and Onan engines. Only drawback is the rubbing block will wear eventually requiring periodic timing checks, but the higher spark energy potential is still there.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2017 at 11:37am
Originally posted by Brian Jasper co. Ia Brian Jasper co. Ia wrote:

There are other ways to get the benefits of electronic ignition. A Ford TFI module can be triggered off points, you just need the module mounted to a good heatsink. Mid 90's F series remote mounted them remotely on a nice aluminum heatsink. It works like Dave Kirk's Point Saver for Kohler and Onan engines. Only drawback is the rubbing block will wear eventually requiring periodic timing checks, but the higher spark energy potential is still there.
I had one of these 40+ years ago. It did as you said, the points did not pass any current. It did save on points, but I don't think it gave much boost to the voltage. I sold it to another guy in my unit and it burned out within a month, after I ran it for two years. At least it had a bypass switch and he wasn't left stranded.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2017 at 9:07pm
Could possibly be as simple as a bad ground cable off the Battery or bad ground connection causing a spike and taking out the module. Sometimes its the stupidest thing...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2017 at 9:53pm
Yup Steve, but this is one case where you can't replace one item at a time. The cost is too high if you blow out three modules before you find the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butch(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 6:40am
You can read of these same Pentronix issues elsewhere, sounds like a person needs an electronics degree to keep them going?? No thanks,  The issue with points is junk imported replacement parts, I circumvent that by purchasing genuine N.O.S Delco Remy points and condensers. There is a boat load of that stuff still around and they are simple,, like me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 9:47am
Nothin' wrong with simple Butch ole' buddy......!   Thumbs Up       You're absolutely right Doug. It can get expensive trying to figure out problems. Been doin' that for 50 years so I'm well aware of that....  LOL!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 10:09am
Back in my gainfully employed days troubleshooting wasn't so costly. I had the correct instruments, for the most part. Sometimes I'd be thrown a curve. RF problems can be nasty hard to troubleshoot. Peak voltages and static can be buggers too. If you don't have the instruments the best you can do is find old used parts and swap them around.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 10:23am
On my D15 II, I was popping the pertronix units.  Finally realized it was happening after charging the battery since it had a poor battery.  (I have way too many things needing batteries here!)  Anyway, I made sure to disconnect charger before trying to start, and it cleared it up.  The one of the boys needed to use the tractor and came in and told me it wouldn't start.  Yep, charger was still hooked up.  Put points back in and never had a problem again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 10:33am
Jim, the new "smart chargers" won't do that. Some of those old chargers were designed for 110 volts, yet many power companies deliver almost 130 volts to a customer now. Check the voltage of your charger. If it's cranking out much more than 14.7 volts I'd give it the heave-ho. I'd avoid turning on the ignition or cranking the engine while the charger is on in any event.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 4:15pm
That charger is long go.  Afore mentioned son left it plugged in.  In the rain.  On the floor of the barn.  Where the river comes through when it rains.  The replacement still has the price tag on it.  It so he can buy it when it happens again.....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hubert (Ga)engine7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2017 at 6:29pm
Having the same problem with my D15. Steve in NJ suggested several things to check. Put the old points and condenser back in and it ran great. Thanks, Steve! I will be getting some good points from you soon.
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