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TomYaz 
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 Topic: NUTS!!
Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 7:37am |
So I get some fine threaded nuts for some bolt/pin on the all-crop...but they dont work on the bolt!..refer to the hardware reference book (worth is weight in gold) and turns out AC had used a "looser" fine thread and a "tighter" fine thread...WTF!! talk about over-engineering! Well its seems my bolt uses a "looser" fine thread, and the off the shelf fine thread is not of that type. Part 910124...hoping SLI can get me some.
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 8:14am |
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That's a new one on me!
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Gary in da UP
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 8:15am |
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Seems like there's a course pitch, fine pitch and son of a pitch, eh?
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TomYaz
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 8:19am |
Yeah kinda peed me off...SLI got back with me...hope to get the right nut...I guess it has been superseded twice..the second supersede sounds suspciously like an ordinary nut... I ordered the first supereded number and will hold my breath...come to think I will order the other part just in case as well...
Did a google on the subject and did come across some verbiage regarding degrees of "fineness" so to speak.
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SHAMELESS
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 9:36am |
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yeah...well wait til ya get some backwards threaded nuts!! pffft
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R Aiken
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 9:36am |
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where are those nuts used? There should be some out in the pasture, on those parts 60 and 66.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 9:43am |
 R Aiken wrote:
where are those nuts used? There should be some out in the pasture, on those parts 60 and 66. |
They are used on the pins that attach the straw rack and pitmans to the rockers.
Standby I may need them if what i ordered doesnt fit...
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 9:53am |
Yazzie, Are ya sure they didn't get superseded to Metric? The way things are farmed out and made today in foreign countries, ya never know!! LOL!
Steve@B&B
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TomYaz
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 9:58am |
Steve in NJ wrote:
Yazzie, Are ya sure they didn't get superseded to Metric? The way things are farmed out and made today in foreign countries, ya never know!! LOL!
Steve@B&B |
If so, then the company that did it (not sure if Allis or AGCO) deserves to go out of business for such idiocy as to list the wrong type of nut. The first supersede says "American Fine", second supersed says "Standard National fine" - well never heard of "American Fine, but it sure aint "Standard"!!
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:02am |
Ah yes the % of thread in holes I have found but not the difference in nuts. Then being around British Motorcycles and finding Witworth, British Standard, and a few other thread sizes , then throw in Metric and US thread pitches both on my 76 Norton along with BS makes it a fun experience in repair
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:26am |
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Yes I know about the % of thread deal but I dont believe that has anything to do with Tom's problem. When performed corretly any % thread will screw into or over any other % thread because the beginning hole or shaft size is varied to suit. As an aside most commen tap drill charts are 60%
Edited by Butch(OH) - 16 Jan 2012 at 10:27am
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ALinIL
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:28am |
Yes Tom, there are difference tolerance on threads. (See below) "Thread Classes: The different thread classes have differing amounts of tolerance and allowance. Classes 1A, 2A, 3A apply to external threads; Classes 1B, 2B, 3B apply to internal threads. See Unified Standard Series." I'm not an expert, but being an engineer, I've run into this in the past.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:31am |
ALinIL wrote:
Yes Tom, there are difference tolerance on threads. (See below)
"Thread Classes: The different thread classes have differing amounts of tolerance and allowance. Classes 1A, 2A, 3A apply to external threads; Classes 1B, 2B, 3B apply to internal threads. See Unified Standard Series." I'm not an expert, but being an engineer, I've run into this in the past. |
So what class pertains to NF "standard" fine threads?
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Matt MN
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:39am |
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NF stands for "National Fine"
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GlenninPA
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:39am |
I went to the cheap Chinese tool store and bought a Tap and Die set to use for cleaning up threads on stuff I took apart. Most of the time it works just "fine", but for some reason, the threads on the hand brake levers off the B's are really tight in the die. I had always chalked it up to typical quality from that particular tool supplier. Maybe I unfairly blamed them? Could it have been an Allis enginer? Perish the thought!
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Matt MN
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:40am |
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What size is this particular size you have in question?
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TomYaz
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:42am |
Matt MN wrote:
NF stands for "National Fine" |
Yes I know, thats not my question. The dealer states a "standard" NF...What would be "standard"; Class 1B, 2B, or 3B?
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TomYaz
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:43am |
Matt MN wrote:
What size is this particular size you have in question? |
5/8"...
when I put what I assume is the "standard" NF nut from the hardware store, it goes only so far then binds up.
Edited by TomYaz - 16 Jan 2012 at 10:43am
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:43am |
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Tom, Whatever the threads are, measure the OD of the bolt and count the number of threads in an inch and you will know what to order. 1/2-13 is a half inch diameter and 13 threads per inch, 1/2-20 is half inch with 20 threads per inch. If you have the bolt, you should be able to order nuts by using the size and pitch to match.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:47am |
CTuckerNWIL wrote:
Tom, Whatever the threads are, measure the OD of the bolt and count the number of threads in an inch and you will know what to order. 1/2-13 is a half inch diameter and 13 threads per inch, 1/2-20 is half inch with 20 threads per inch. If you have the bolt, you should be able to order nuts by using the size and pitch to match.
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I already placed an order with SLI, hopefully that will do the trick.
BTW I got the last 5 known pins of a particular type, will use the last one as a template to make new ones....WITH "STANDARD" FINE THREAD!!!
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Matt MN
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:58am |
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5/8-18 or 5/8-24?
2B would be considered "standard"
here are the measurements from the ANSI/ASME B1.2-1983 book
5/8-18 2B UNF
major diameter 0.6250"
minor diameter 0.5889"
5/8-18 3B UNF
Major Diameter 0.6250"
minor diameter 0.6175"
5/8-24 2B UNEF
Major Diameter 0.6250"
Minor Diameter 0.5979"
5/8-24 3B UNEF
Major Diameter 0.6250"
minor Diameter 0.5979"
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ALinIL
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 11:24am |
Here is info on 5/8 threads. You may need to check the thread pitch as there are other pitches 5/8-12 and 5/8-20. | External Thread /Internal Thread | | | Nominal Size, TPI, Series | Class | Allowance | MaxaMajor
Max Minor | Min Major
Min Minor | Min b | MaxaPitch | Min Pitch | UNRcMinor Dia
Major Dia(Min) |
| Ext. | 5/8-11 UNC | 1A | 0.0016 | 0.6234 | 0.6052 | - | 0.5644 | 0.5561 | 0.5152 | | Int. | | 1B | | 0.5460 | 0.5270 | | 0.5767 | 0.5660 | 0.6250 | | Ext. | 5/8-11 UNC | 2A | 0.0016 | 0.6234 | 0.6113 | 0.6052 | 0.5644 | 0.5589 | 0.5152 | | Int. | | 2B | | 0.5460 | 0.5270 | | 0.5732 | 0.5660 | 0.6250 | | Ext. | 5/8-11 UNC | 3A | 0.0000 | 0.6250 | 0.6129 | - | 0.5660 | 0.5619 | 0.5168 | | Int. | | 3B | | 0.5391 | 0.5270 | | 0.5714 | 0.5660 | 0.6250 |
| Ext. | 5/8-18 UNF | 1A | 0.0014 | 0.6236 | 0.6105 | - | 0.5875 | 0.5805 | 0.5575 | | Int. | | 1B | | 0.5780 | 0.5650 | | 0.5980 | 0.5889 | 0.6250 | | Ext. | 5/8-18 UNF | 2A | 0.0014 | 0.6236 | 0.6149 | - | 0.5875 | 0.5828 | 0.5575 | | Int. | | 2B | | 0.5780 | 0.5650 | | 0.5949 | 0.5889 | 0.6250 | | Ext. | 5/8-18 UNF | 3A | 0.0000 | 0.6250 | 0.6163 | - | 0.5889 | 0.5854 | 0.5589 | | Int. | | 3B | | 0.5730 | 0.5650 | | 0.5934 | 0.5889 | 0.6250 |
Edited by ALinIL - 16 Jan 2012 at 11:30am
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TomYaz
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 11:43am |
Matt MN wrote:
5/8-18 or 5/8-24?
2B would be considered "standard"
here are the measurements from the ANSI/ASME B1.2-1983 book
5/8-18 2B UNF
major diameter 0.6250"
minor diameter 0.5889"
5/8-18 3B UNF
Major Diameter 0.6250"
minor diameter 0.6175"
5/8-24 2B UNEF
Major Diameter 0.6250"
Minor Diameter 0.5979"
5/8-24 3B UNEF
Major Diameter 0.6250"
minor Diameter 0.5979" |
Matt, Al;
Good stuff; thanks...now if someone could explain to me why AC would go with a "looser" fine thread for these pins....some engineer deciding to get a giggle out of someone like me?
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ALinIL
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 12:47pm |
Tom - Because of where these are used ie; lots of vibration, they may have used a class 3 with no lock washer and a thread sealer to prevent loosening.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 1:02pm |
ALinIL wrote:
Tom - Because of where these are used ie; lots of vibration, they may have used a
class 3 with no lock washer and a thread sealer to prevent loosening. |
nah. Calls for a lock washer..and wouldnt you want a tighter thread as opposed to a looser thread this has for that situation? (I dunno, Im no expert) Did they even have thread sealers in the 1940's?
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ALinIL
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 1:18pm |
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Oh well, like you, don't have a clue. At this point, I'd replace with 2A,2B. Also they did have thread sealer in the 40's. It may be possible you are dealing with someone else doing a repair before you.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 1:25pm |
ALinIL wrote:
Oh well, like you, don't have a clue. At this point, I'd replace with 2A,2B. Also they did have thread sealer in the 40's. It may be possible you are dealing with someone else doing a repair before you. |
Cant really replace. The pin with these goofy threads is proprietary. I have NOS of this pin and its the same way. Hardware reference from AC calls for "NF-1" for this particular bolt. It also lists a NF-2 and NF-3 as possible sizes - and thats seems in step with your 1A,2A,3A sizes.
Edited by TomYaz - 16 Jan 2012 at 1:26pm
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Dusty MI
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 8:17pm |
Different but somewhat the same.
NPT- National Pipe Thread, right? wrong. National Pipe Taper. There is a National Pipe Straight NPS
NPS seems to be used for higher pressure. It uses a copper washer, much like a garden hose gasket/washer.
I also learned that a 3/8" NPS-18 is the same diameter as a 5/8-18 bolt but a die for it will not screw on 3/8-18 NPS. Not sure but it appears the thread pitch is a little different.
Dusty
Edited by Dusty MI - 16 Jan 2012 at 8:21pm
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Walker
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Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 1:15am |
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I would just buy a thread file and hit the bolt a few times. Or get a tap and run it in and out of the nut a few times.
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Lonn
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Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 6:43am |
I saw this topic I thought you were posting about me because I'm Nuts!!! |
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