NUTS!!
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43875
Printed Date: 24 Jul 2025 at 2:00pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: NUTS!!
Posted By: TomYaz
Subject: NUTS!!
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 7:37am
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So I get some fine threaded nuts for some bolt/pin on the all-crop...but they dont work on the bolt!..refer to the hardware reference book (worth is weight in gold) and turns out AC had used a "looser" fine thread and a "tighter" fine thread...WTF!! talk about over-engineering! Well its seems my bolt uses a "looser" fine thread, and the off the shelf fine thread is not of that type. Part 910124...hoping SLI can get me some.
------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Replies:
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 8:14am
| That's a new one on me! |
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 8:15am
| Seems like there's a course pitch, fine pitch and son of a pitch, eh? |
Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 8:19am
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Yeah kinda peed me off...SLI got back with me...hope to get the right nut...I guess it has been superseded twice..the second supersede sounds suspciously like an ordinary nut... I ordered the first supereded number and will hold my breath...come to think I will order the other part just in case as well...
Did a google on the subject and did come across some verbiage regarding degrees of "fineness" so to speak.
------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 9:36am
| yeah...well wait til ya get some backwards threaded nuts!! pffft |
Posted By: R Aiken
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 9:36am
| where are those nuts used? There should be some out in the pasture, on those parts 60 and 66. |
Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 9:43am
They are used on the pins that attach the straw rack and pitmans to the rockers.
Standby I may need them if what i ordered doesnt fit...
------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
R Aiken wrote:Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 9:53am
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Yazzie, Are ya sure they didn't get superseded to Metric? The way things are farmed out and made today in foreign countries, ya never know!! LOL! mailto:Steve@B&B" rel="nofollow - Steve@B&B |
Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 9:58am
If so, then the company that did it (not sure if Allis or AGCO) deserves to go out of business for such idiocy as to list the wrong type of nut. The first supersede says "American Fine", second supersed says "Standard National fine" - well never heard of "American Fine, but it sure aint "Standard"!! ------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:02am
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Ah yes the % of thread in holes I have found but not the difference in nuts. Then being around British Motorcycles and finding Witworth, British Standard, and a few other thread sizes , then throw in Metric and US thread pitches both on my 76 Norton along with BS makes it a fun experience in repair ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:26am
| Yes I know about the % of thread deal but I dont believe that has anything to do with Tom's problem. When performed corretly any % thread will screw into or over any other % thread because the beginning hole or shaft size is varied to suit. As an aside most commen tap drill charts are 60% |
Posted By: ALinIL
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:28am
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Yes Tom, there are difference tolerance on threads. (See below) "Thread Classes: The different thread classes have differing amounts of tolerance and allowance. Classes 1A, 2A, 3A apply to external threads; Classes 1B, 2B, 3B apply to internal threads. See http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/screws/unified.cfm" rel="nofollow - Unified Standard Series ." I'm not an expert, but being an engineer, I've run into this in the past.
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Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:31am
So what class pertains to NF "standard" fine threads? ------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Posted By: Matt MN
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:39am
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NF stands for "National Fine" ------------- Unless your are the lead horse the scenery never changes!! |
Posted By: GlenninPA
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:39am
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I went to the cheap Chinese tool store and bought a Tap and Die set to use for cleaning up threads on stuff I took apart. Most of the time it works just "fine", but for some reason, the threads on the hand brake levers off the B's are really tight in the die. I had always chalked it up to typical quality from that particular tool supplier. Maybe I unfairly blamed them? Could it have been an Allis enginer? Perish the thought! ------------- Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. From listening comes wisdom and from speaking comes repentance. Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. |
Posted By: Matt MN
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:40am
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What size is this particular size you have in question? ------------- Unless your are the lead horse the scenery never changes!! |
Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:42am
Yes I know, thats not my question. The dealer states a "standard" NF...What would be "standard"; Class 1B, 2B, or 3B? ------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:43am
5/8"...
when I put what I assume is the "standard" NF nut from the hardware store, it goes only so far then binds up. ------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:43am
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Tom, Whatever the threads are, measure the OD of the bolt and count the number of threads in an inch and you will know what to order. 1/2-13 is a half inch diameter and 13 threads per inch, 1/2-20 is half inch with 20 threads per inch. If you have the bolt, you should be able to order nuts by using the size and pitch to match. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:47am
I already placed an order with SLI, hopefully that will do the trick.
BTW I got the last 5 known pins of a particular type, will use the last one as a template to make new ones....WITH "STANDARD" FINE THREAD!!! ------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Posted By: Matt MN
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:58am
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5/8-18 or 5/8-24? 2B would be considered "standard" here are the measurements from the ANSI/ASME B1.2-1983 book 5/8-18 2B UNF major diameter 0.6250" minor diameter 0.5889" 5/8-18 3B UNF Major Diameter 0.6250" minor diameter 0.6175" 5/8-24 2B UNEF Major Diameter 0.6250" Minor Diameter 0.5979" 5/8-24 3B UNEF Major Diameter 0.6250" minor Diameter 0.5979" ------------- Unless your are the lead horse the scenery never changes!! |
Posted By: ALinIL
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 11:24am
Here is info on 5/8 threads. You may need to check the thread pitch as there are other pitches 5/8-12 and 5/8-20.
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Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 11:43am
Matt, Al;
Good stuff; thanks...now if someone could explain to me why AC would go with a "looser" fine thread for these pins....some engineer deciding to get a giggle out of someone like me? ------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Posted By: ALinIL
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 12:47pm
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Tom - Because of where these are used ie; lots of vibration, they may have used a class 3 with no lock washer and a thread sealer to prevent loosening.
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Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 1:02pm
nah. Calls for a lock washer..and wouldnt you want a tighter thread as opposed to a looser thread this has for that situation? (I dunno, Im no expert) Did they even have thread sealers in the 1940's? ------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Posted By: ALinIL
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 1:18pm
| Oh well, like you, don't have a clue. At this point, I'd replace with 2A,2B. Also they did have thread sealer in the 40's. It may be possible you are dealing with someone else doing a repair before you. |
Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 1:25pm
Cant really replace. The pin with these goofy threads is proprietary. I have NOS of this pin and its the same way. Hardware reference from AC calls for "NF-1" for this particular bolt. It also lists a NF-2 and NF-3 as possible sizes - and thats seems in step with your 1A,2A,3A sizes. ------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 8:17pm
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Different but somewhat the same. NPT- National Pipe Thread, right? wrong. National Pipe Taper. There is a National Pipe Straight NPS NPS seems to be used for higher pressure. It uses a copper washer, much like a garden hose gasket/washer. I also learned that a 3/8" NPS-18 is the same diameter as a 5/8-18 bolt but a die for it will not screw on 3/8-18 NPS. Not sure but it appears the thread pitch is a little different. Dusty
------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 1:15am
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I would just buy a thread file and hit the bolt a few times. Or get a tap and run it in and out of the nut a few times. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 6:43am
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 6:48am
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Oops edit; I'm sorry! ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: BobHnwO
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 7:22am
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Lonn or Jeff???
------------- Why do today what you can put off til tomorrow. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 7:24am
Wouldn't you like to know.
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Wendell(OK/TX)
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 12:29am
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Referred to as "interference fit" by my college instructor. Basically the "peak" and "valley" of the threads come closer to an actual "V" than to the "U" of standard hardware that you would see if looking at them when magnified. Small difference but a noticeable difference in contact surface between the bolt and nut, hence less chance of it coming loose. First time I've heard of it in years. |
Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 6:01am
Well I got the finer thread nuts from AGCO today...They will screw on now, but are snug. Came across some original fine thread nuts used on this pin (figures)..they screw on a lot looser. So seems to me I have experienced the three types of fine thread...wont fit, fits tight, and fits loose...
------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 6:43am
Wendell, do know the difference in the shape of the treads between 5/8-18 NFT and 3/8-18 NPS ? They are about the same OD. Thanks, Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: Ted J
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 7:42am
Sounds like my Ex-wife. She had fits too. LOL Where else can you learn all these things on the net?! I had no idea! And like Glen, I blamed it on the cheap Chinese tap & die set. ------------- "Allis-Express" 19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17 |
Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 7:59am
>>Sounds like my Ex-wife. She had fits too. LOL Wow, for a second there, I thought you were going into a really off-color remark LOL!
>>Where else can you learn all these things on the net?! I had no idea! Me neither.. An observation...the original nuts I found, the loosest of the three, was a castle nut (with a cotter pin of course)...but it was superseded by a non-castle nut that I just got and it is tighter. I suppose the tighter replacement nut was to replace the use of the castle nut/ cotter pin arrangement. Hmm so what should I use...the castle/cotter combo or the replacement? ------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Posted By: Dipstick In
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2012 at 8:18am
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It's easier to trade nuts and cheaper to find a "fit" than wives! Just my opinion. ------------- You don't really have to be smart if you know who is! |
Posted By: Ted J
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 11:14am
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Went to Fastenal to get some castle nuts that I needed. They don't have them in stock, can order. Well, guess what? They want to charge you shipping on anything that is ordered. NOT even a special order. AND they WON'T ship it to you, only to the store. Needless to say, I am NOT doing anymore business with Fastenal. Was about $8 to get a simple 1/2" castle nut. Ordered from Farm & Fleet and cost me two days and $1.25.
------------- "Allis-Express" 19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17 |
Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 11:36am
Im not keen on Fastenal either; didnt like the clerks attitude ------------- If its not an All-Crop, it all crap! |
Posted By: Flint23
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 1:04pm
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Is that what A/C means by special bolt? ------------- been there done that, not doing it again... |
Posted By: Clay
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 7:26pm
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All depends on the Fastenal store. The one in Derby, Ks. is ok but not as friendly as the one in Arkansas City, Kansas. Those people have always been great to deal with and very helpful. |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 2:44pm
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I find Mid-State Nut and Bolt much easier to deal with. Just do a search. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 3:13pm
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I needed 4 metric bolts for the brake master cylinder on my Norton, went to fastenall and they said they would order them in $2.00 each and minimum shipping $10. Said I would like to get socket head cap screws, they said it would take 2 weeks to get there .. Went over to fleet farm store across the street (Hudson WI) they had the screws in stock in bulk, (hex head) cost .78 cents each for 4, then I bought 4 which were a shade longer also those were .97 cents. Earlier on from Fastenall I got 4 thread coils for thread repair , cost .60 each and when I went to pick them up 5 days later they told me about shipping charge then of $8.00 + cost of coils.
------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |