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wjohn 
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 Topic: Matching Used Camshaft and Lifters
Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 11:06pm |
There's plenty of discussion about this on automotive forums, but I'm curious what the guys who deal with low-speed low spring pressure Allis-Chalmers engines think. The lobes on the camshaft out of my WD look decent, but the middle journal is worn way out of spec, so I'm looking for a replacement camshaft. Do the original lifters from whatever camshaft I buy need to go with it, on their original matched lobes? The concern is that mismatched lobes and lifters would start wearing rapidly and wipe out the lobes.
All of my lifters are worn slightly concave, and a couple of them have more serious wear patterns on them that concern me. I haven't priced new lifters at AGCO but I doubt they're cheap.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 5:29am |
I'd like to think you could take parts from 4-5-6 engines, mix and match and Frankenengine would start right up an last 30-40-50 years. Sure it'd be nice if evrything was 'within spec' but... reality is things wear over time and STILL perofrm reasonably well. I KNOW that a certain lil English Austin never had all the 'head parts' put back 'in order' and it ran GREAT.... dang that was 1/2 century ago.
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 5:35am |
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The old rule of thumb is old cam/new lifters is OK but new cam/old lifters is not OK. If your going to the expence of a new or reground cam get the lifters refaced. If that expence causes your wallet to empty out then don't get a new cam and find a used one and put it back together. As the other poster said it will very likely run great tbe rest of your life.
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 5:36am |
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Duplicate removed
Edited by Butch(OH) - 03 Jul 2020 at 5:37am
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allisbred
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 5:59am |
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Well— I’m going through this same issue on an old Chrysler flat head that is soon to be rebuilt. Doesn’t seem new lifters are available and I‘m being told they reuse the old lifters on reground cams.
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wjohn
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 9:52am |
 Butch(OH) wrote:
The old rule of thumb is old cam/new lifters is OK but new cam/old lifters is not OK. If your going to the expence of a new or reground cam get the lifters refaced. If that expence causes your wallet to empty out then don't get a new cam and find a used one and put it back together. As the other poster said it will very likely run great tbe rest of your life. |
I will not be putting a new/reground cam in this tractor and valve springs will be stock. However, I should mention that this tractor will get some hours on it since I have about 20 acres of tillable I plan to mess around with. Sounds like I should just find the best looking used lifters I can and go with them.
I think I read a DickL post somewhere that said the lifters should actually be slightly convex?
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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Boss Man
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 6:06pm |
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Lifters have concave bottoms on them to help them turn as the cam rotates, which helps control wear
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wjohn
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 6:52pm |
Boss Man wrote:
Lifters have concave bottoms on them to help them turn as the cam rotates, which helps control wear |
WC/WD/WD-45 lifters should be concave when new?
Most automotive examples I looked up have a convex surface. Mine from my WD are all slightly concave and definitely showing various levels of wear... If they were originally concave that would make me feel slightly better.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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HD6GTOM
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 7:58pm |
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When I overhauled dads, I got new lifters at NAPA.
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Tracy Martin TN
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 9:00pm |
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On the D 15 series and smaller AC engines,what turns the lifters are that they are off center to lobes on the cam, might be that way on larger engines too. Just the nature of cam rotating will turn the lifter. HTH Tracy
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MACK
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 9:14pm |
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If the lifters are concave, they are worn out. MACK
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LeonR2013
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 9:28pm |
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When I redid my 45 I straight edged the bottom of the lifter and found they were worn. So I just glued a piece of emery cloth to a very flat 2X10 and keeping the lifter as flat as possible began sanding and checking frequently with a straight edge. Worked for me. Leon
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wjohn
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 9:50pm |
HD6GTOM wrote:
When I overhauled dads, I got new lifters at NAPA. |
Any way you'd have the part number somewhere? I've searched NAPA's website with no luck for anything tied to a WD. The only new ones I can find are from Reliance and they're in the $50 each range.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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DrAllis
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 9:52pm |
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Some valve grinders have an attachment to reface mushroom type lifters.
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wjohn
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 9:53pm |
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Mack, thanks for the confirmation on concave being worn out. Leon I will be tempted to attempt some cleanup on these if I can't find affordable new ones.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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Jacob (WI,ND)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 9:57pm |
There are a lot of variables, but I'll give you my two cents from my experience. On my 20-35 rebuild, we originally used the original worn cam, with resurfaced lifters. That is what people told us we should do, and we didn't know any better, so we did just that. That was NOT the thing to do! After minimal running we pulled the engine side covers to inspect, to find the edges of several of the lifters chipped up and you can guess where those chips go. Long story short, we SHOULD have had the cam ground as well as the lifters. The old funny worn cam was putting pressure on the edges of the new lifters and making them fail. Maybe it was a fluke, but I don't think so. Tore the engine all back down to have the cam ground, and new lifters AGAIN. Clean out entire engine. Very frustrating. Take the time and $ and have both reground. It really doesn't cost that much compared to fixing the carnage when something goes wrong. Now you know how I know.
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Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45
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KMAG
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 10:01pm |
Vintage Power Wagons is your home for 218/230/265 Mopar flathead parts. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxzO_Oy1EMLIWVFzSHRzNjlOMWs/view$25 per valve tappet. Loads of low mileage (under 30k) military 230 M37 engines out there for cheap parts.
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wjohn
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 11:45pm |
DrAllis wrote:
Some valve grinders have an attachment to reface mushroom type lifters. |
That would be slick. I have a Sioux 645L and it came with the rocker arm grinding attachment, but it doesn't look like they even made anything for lifters - at least for that model.
I was trying to think of a way to rig it up but I'm not sure I could accurately do much other than grind the bottom of the lifter flat.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 11:47pm |
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From Briggs & Stratton on up, flat tappets run off center of lobe so they will rotate.
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 9:53am |
wjohn wrote:
DrAllis wrote:
Some valve grinders have an attachment to reface mushroom type lifters. |
That would be slick. I have a Sioux 645L and it came with the rocker arm grinding attachment, but it doesn't look like they even made anything for lifters - at least for that model.
I was trying to think of a way to rig it up but I'm not sure I could accurately do much other than grind the bottom of the lifter flat. |
My Black and Decker has that attachmemt. After using it I finish the lifter by placing it in a collar in the Bridgeport and lowering it on a lapping plate.
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 12:36pm |
wjohn wrote:
DrAllis wrote:
Some valve grinders have an attachment to reface mushroom type lifters. |
That would be slick. I have a Sioux 645L and it came with the rocker arm grinding attachment, but it doesn't look like they even made anything for lifters - at least for that model.
I was trying to think of a way to rig it up but I'm not sure I could accurately do much other than grind the bottom of the lifter flat. |
My Black and Decker has that attachmemt. After using it I finish the lifter by placing it in a collar in the Bridgeport and lowering it on a lapping plate.
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wjohn
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Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 2:20pm |
Butch(OH) wrote:
My Black and Decker has that attachmemt. After using it I finish the lifter by placing it in a collar in the Bridgeport and lowering it on a lapping plate. |
That flat grinds the surface, or gives you a slightly convex surface?
I guess if these were flat from the factory I could handle that with my valve grinder.
Edited by wjohn - 04 Jul 2020 at 2:22pm
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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Dick L
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Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 3:37pm |
Slight convex is the way I have always re conditioned. They will get concave after enough dirty oil and hours of run time. The lifters out of this engine was as bad as I had ever seen them. I used a spin index on a pivot with a surface grinder in my tool shop. I used new lifters when I put a Crane ground camshaft in my one C. However my wife says I am absent minded. I tell her she is silly because I can not for the life of me remember being absent minded. 
Edited by Dick L - 04 Jul 2020 at 3:52pm
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Butch(OH)
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Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 6:20pm |
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Yes it grinds them flat, your engine will be happy with flat ground lifters
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HD6GTOM
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Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 8:00am |
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I do not have any numbers. I went to a NAPA that has been in business since the 1930's. They knew which catalogue to look in. They did not come from the NAPA warehouse. Good luck with your tractor. The WD45 we have is one dad bought new. Last time I worked on the hovenor for him, I put 170 governor springs in it. It was his favorite tractor.
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wjohn
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Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 12:08pm |
Butch(OH) wrote:
Yes it grinds them flat, your engine will be happy with flat ground lifters |
Awesome. I guess that makes sense... They start out convex, eventually get worn flat, and then wear in to concave. By at least making them flat they're probably at least half as good as new, and way better than what they look like now.
These are samples of the ones I'm working with out of my WD. They're concave by 0.002-0.003 in the centers. Some have some pretty ugly wear patterns from the lobes at 90 degree angles which tells me they weren't or haven't been rotating at some point in their lives. Those spots are worn in a little deeper. I'll play around with grinding them flat on the valve end grinding attachment on my Sioux. No Bridgeport unfortunately but I can try hand finishing them.
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1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45
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wjohn
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Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 12:10pm |
HD6GTOM wrote:
I do not have any numbers. I went to a NAPA that has been in business since the 1930's. They knew which catalogue to look in. They did not come from the NAPA warehouse. Good luck with your tractor. The WD45 we have is one dad bought new. Last time I worked on the hovenor for him, I put 170 governor springs in it. It was his favorite tractor. |
Thanks Tom. I should price AGCO ones but I doubt they're much if any cheaper than the Reliance ones at $50 each. I wonder if the ones you got from NAPA were from Reliance or someone like Mahle, Sealed Power, etc. but I can't find them available anymore. As you are hinting at it might be worth stopping by a local NAPA in case they have a better way to look them up.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 5:05pm |
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I'd be shocked if AGCO even has any available.
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LeonR2013
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Posted: 15 Jul 2020 at 9:16pm |
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WJohn, yours are way worse than mine was. It had to be a noisy motor. I wouldn't attempt to do those by hand. But mine turned out good and still in there after several years of lite work.
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LeonR2013
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Posted: 15 Jul 2020 at 9:25pm |
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In addition wjohn I glued a piece of I think it was 400 emery, to a flat board and used both hands to keep the lifter as square as possible sanded back and forth, finished with very fine emery. Guess I was to dumb not to try it, but so far so good. Leon
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