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Thad in AR. 
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 Posted: 22 Dec 2022 at 4:57am |
 Walker wrote:
Probably has a left over tool holder nobody ever knocked out.
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It has a long arbor that’s about a 20” long with lots of spacers. I didn’t remove it so I don’t know how far in the spindle is hollow? The opposite end if the spindle shaft is solid and has a pulley on it that goes to an idler that goes to a bother shaft that goes forewords to run the Y power feed.
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Walker
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Posted: 22 Dec 2022 at 11:55pm |
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Sounds like the arbor that the cutters go on for horizontal milling. If ya got any cutters with it take some collars off and see if hole is same size as arbor or make sure it's free and give it a whack from behind. Start slow or get somebody to grab it.
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DMiller
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Posted: 23 Dec 2022 at 8:30am |
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Any photos of the Mill, this style machine had a reversable head support system that allowed use of Adaptors out of the drive hub or for supported arbor style work.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 23 Dec 2022 at 12:29pm |
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 23 Dec 2022 at 1:24pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 23 Dec 2022 at 9:02pm |
Walker wrote:
Your spindle has to be open or won't be able to knock tapered holders out. Oh yeah and B and S tapers are hard to find for some reason used. Collets run large monies.
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This isn't true. If the spindle is blind, there will be a window in the side into which a release wedge can be driven.
Collets are pretty much standard-fare, and one does NOT need set-screws to keep an end mill securely in the collet, it's surface gripping force is several orders-of-magnitude greater than a half-dozen setscrews could ever impose, AND it provides a stable support axis which setscrews can not.
The B&S #9 was a common taper used for many of the small B&S mills, as well as many Moore spindles, and one of the most common on Bridgeport type 'M' vertical heads.
Yes, the #2 Morse WITH DRAWBAR was a more popular fixture for the M-vertical, particularly in metalworking shops, but the J-head's R8 tooling superceded the M anyway.
The B&S Horizontal, when fitted for pocket milling, used just the taper to hold the milling cutter in place. IF you load the cutter too heavily, it will break off before disengaging from the taper. IF the taper releases, it is because the spindle ID taper has been damaged, or the mill collet's taper has been damaged, or both.
Drawbars are more common on post 1920's machines, where pocket milling into iron and steel was much more common. Prior to 1920, use of a SMALL horizontal mill for pocket milling was most often for cabinetmaking, patternmaking out of wood, or light machining of soft (copper and brass) mechanisms like door latches.
If one needed a more substantial pocket into irons or steels, one used a Horizontal Boring Mill, as it had a much more substantial chassis and drivetrain.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Walker
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Posted: 23 Dec 2022 at 9:07pm |
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That looks like one of the pre dirt models.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 23 Dec 2022 at 9:09pm |
That is from 1895ish through 1920 or so. They were typically driven from overhead lineshaft. The table feed was driven by belt from spindle down tot he cone sheave on back.
BTW, that looks like a B&S #0 Plain, if so, it will probalby have a B&S 9 taper with a 17/32" through hole.
The overarm retains the arbor. Inserting the factory 'knock out' rod through from the back should release the taper, but don't be surprised if it isn't ready- the precision on that taper is incredible, and a few years will make them really wanna stay.
To get the drawbar taper released on my Milwaukee #2 horizontal, I had to insert the knockout rod, and whack it.
Here's a ref on PM for it: The trick to releasing, is not to use a big hammer, use the smallest, and swing it as FAST as you can- it is shock that releases, not thrust.
Edited by DaveKamp - 23 Dec 2022 at 9:11pm
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Walker
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Posted: 23 Dec 2022 at 9:29pm |
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How many stars are in the sky? I've actually never seen a mill like that one. I have seen the side window you speak of but only on a drill press. After that I guess it's personal preference, whats at hand to work with and what experience tells you so I really don't care.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 3:27am |
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Dave best I can tell is it’s a no. 1 universal
Unfortunately it has a Brown & Sharpe 10 taper. Much less tooling available for that.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 5:09am |
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As I said in an earlier post it has the slot for a knock out wedge.
It’s just in behind the front bearing. The arbor isn’t stuck. It’s all put together finger tight.
They put that lapidary wheel on for a project that didn’t pan out.
The wheel grips the belt from centrifugal force. This ole relic doesn’t spin near fast enough to make that happen. He did give me that wheel and 100 sanding belts to fit it. Have no idea what I’ll use it for?
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 1:08pm |
Okay, so the spindle belt is NOT by centrifugal force- that's a common misnomer. Your mill was originally intended for overhead lineshaft drive, and belt tension to the overhead drive was accomplished through a weighted deflection roller which served as triple-purpose- it performed as belt tensioner, clutch, and shifting mechanism, as it slid on a parallelogram directly beneath the countershaft which had a cone-sheave matching (in reverse) your mill's cone. The electric drive was installed much later.
To tension the belt without a deflection roller, you'll need to shorten the belt (lacing tool), then spray it down with water to 'shrink' it... and once shrunken, you'll likely need some sort of saddle soap to keep it protected from drying out.
As I noted above, the horizontal mill, at the time this one was built, was not used in the same sort of context as what one would be used for in the 'steel' era, and the 'vertical mill' that we use today, simply did not exist, as there was no technology or materials to produce tooling to do what one can do with say... the BRJ in my garage.
That being said, your #1 horizontal... if you need an arbor, it would be made same now, as it was when this machine first came out- using the compound in lathe, or cross-set the tailstock and turn one between centers... then abrade it to precision fit with garnet, grease, and prove it in the spindle with dye.
Could one use it in a common shop context? Certainly. If you make a simple indexing fixture, you can easily cut gear blanks with homemade involute gearcutter, or acquire some factory-made involute cutters and do same in soft metals and even mild steels... so don't discount it's ability to make some very useful stuff... but it was intended to be operated with the overarm as support for the arbor... 'pocket milling' in this era was the function of a horizontal boring mill.
All that said, if the bed moves well in all axis, you could do some pretty fantastic surface precision as a surfacing grinder... a grinding wheel and LOTS of patience. That spindle won't like going really fast, so lots of patience.
Edited by DaveKamp - 24 Dec 2022 at 1:10pm
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 1:36pm |
great for cutting key ways and slots...
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 2:02pm |
Steve... Izzat a K&T #2??
Thad- Steve's mill is using either a NMTB 30 or 40 taper, and his mill spindle IS hollow for a drawbar. Both my Cinci #2 and my EARLY K&T use a 40 taper, both have drawbar. My Maho MH600E uses the CAT40, which is an NMTB 40-taper with a knob-type fixture on the end, and the MH has a hydraulic drawbar with 'fingers' that grab that ball, rather than threading the drawbar into the taper.
Important to note, there are many types of tapers, but TWO TYPES of taper designs.... there are SELF-HOLDING tapers, and SELF-RELEASING tapers. The taper design of a self-holding is such that, once put in, it will not WANT to release, instead, it will grip tighter. Morse, Jacobs, and B&S tapers are self-holding. The primary characteristic is the taper angle... it's about a 3.5-in-12 taper that will release, anything shallower will tighten. Morse tapers, for example, are about 1 in 20.
Self-releasing tapers, like the NMTB (the '30' or '40', etc) are much greater angle... a taper of more like 7 in 24... to make them drive, a tang IS required on the flange.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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B26240
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 2:38pm |
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If you guys want to watch a B&S mill (1895ish) cut a spur gear go to " Old steam powered machine shop video 72" Video 71 Dave R shows replacing the lathe type center in the overarm support with a running bushing. Vid 72 Dave cuts the gear with mill powered by steam.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 4:14pm |
DaveKamp wrote:
Okay, so the spindle belt is NOT by centrifugal force- that's a common misnomer. Your mill was originally intended for overhead lineshaft drive, and belt tension to the overhead drive was accomplished through a weighted deflection roller which served as triple-purpose- it performed as belt tensioner, clutch, and shifting mechanism, as it slid on a parallelogram directly beneath the countershaft which had a cone-sheave matching (in reverse) your mill's cone. The electric drive was installed much later.
To tension the belt without a deflection roller, you'll need to shorten the belt (lacing tool), then spray it down with water to 'shrink' it... and once shrunken, you'll likely need some sort of saddle soap to keep it protected from drying out.
As I noted above, the horizontal mill, at the time this one was built, was not used in the same sort of context as what one would be used for in the 'steel' era, and the 'vertical mill' that we use today, simply did not exist, as there was no technology or materials to produce tooling to do what one can do with say... the BRJ in my garage.
That being said, your #1 horizontal... if you need an arbor, it would be made same now, as it was when this machine first came out- using the compound in lathe, or cross-set the tailstock and turn one between centers... then abrade it to precision fit with garnet, grease, and prove it in the spindle with dye.
Could one use it in a common shop context? Certainly. If you make a simple indexing fixture, you can easily cut gear blanks with homemade involute gearcutter, or acquire some factory-made involute cutters and do same in soft metals and even mild steels... so don't discount it's ability to make some very useful stuff... but it was intended to be operated with the overarm as support for the arbor... 'pocket milling' in this era was the function of a horizontal boring mill.
All that said, if the bed moves well in all axis, you could do some pretty fantastic surface precision as a surfacing grinder... a grinding wheel and LOTS of patience. That spindle won't like going really fast, so lots of patience.
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The lapidary wheel on the arbor grips the sanding belt with centrifugal force. Sorry I didn’t clarify. I’m well aware how a line shaft works. I already have an 1890’s drill press from the Daisy BbGun factory and a belt drive lathe. I have worked on a little bit of line shaft equipment including a restore of a grist mill. I know about tapers as well. I just questioned weather it smart to use a short (unsupported) arbor with a face mill or end mills to n this ole relic. Thank you for the information.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 4:23pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
great for cutting key ways and slots...
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Keyways would be the number one reason for buying this. I also have hopes of some face milling. I have some 1” thick plates that were saw cut and I’d like to face the edges of all them to an even width for a project I have coming up.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 5:58pm |
THAD---I already have an 1890’s drill press from the Daisy BbGun factory and a belt drive lathe.
I have worked on a little bit of line shaft equipment including a restore of a grist mill.
Your getting into this pretty deep Thad........ 15 years ago i ran into a 1910 RYERSON Lathe that followed me home... 20 inch swing.. light duty unit .. probably under 3000# ...has a 3 HP 3 phase motor on top... I built a static phase converter to run it... fun to play with a few times per year.... ( Most of my work is on a SB 9 inch from WW2.)
Edited by steve(ill) - 24 Dec 2022 at 5:58pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 6:35pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
<span style="color: rgb0, 0, 36; : rgb254, 252, 212;">THAD---I already have an 1890’s drill press from the Daisy BbGun factory and a belt drive lathe.</span><br style="color: rgb0, 0, 36; : rgb254, 252, 212;"><span style="color: rgb0, 0, 36; : rgb254, 252, 212;">I have worked on a little bit of line shaft equipment including a restore of a grist mill.</span><span style="color: rgb0, 0, 36; : rgb254, 252, 212;">
</span> <b style="">Your getting into this pretty deep Thad........ 15 years ago i ran into a 1910 RYERSON Lathe that followed me home... 20 inch swing.. light duty unit .. probably under 3000# ...has a 3 HP 3 phase motor on top... I built a static phase converter to run it... fun to play with a few times per year.... ( Most of my work is on a SB 9 inch from WW2.) <span style="color: rgb0, 0, 36; : rgb254, 252, 212;">
</span> <span style="color: rgb0, 0, 36; : rgb254, 252, 212;">
</span> <span style="color: rgb0, 0, 36; : rgb254, 252, 212;">
</span>
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Oh wow that lathe is a beauty. I have a Sheldon WW2 era lathe. I use it often. The guy I bought that ole mill has a Putnam lathe for sale. Looks similar to yours. It’s about 8 feet long and eats a lot of real estate or I’d buy it too. The owner says it’s civil war era. I’ll try to get pics.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 6:46pm |
The Putnam lathe 
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DMiller
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 6:47pm |
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Worked part time job at Olin Western Cartridge 1976 as finished trade school. Can remember them tearing out so many older belt driven machines in the oldest buildings, some had been there since before WWI.
Wish I had had some spare change to get at least one of those back then. Many went to scrap.
Edited by DMiller - 24 Dec 2022 at 6:47pm
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Dusty MI
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 7:43pm |
I've got a 14" swing with a 40" bed metal lathe. I think that it was originally line shaft driven, because it looks to have a vertical shaft added that holds an electric motor and an old Ford 3 speed/w reverse transmission, v-belt driven, then transmission v-belt drives the lathe shaft, the shaft has a 3-step flat pulley with the v-pulley added. If I remember right it's a Seneca Lathe. Works nice for me.
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 7:51pm |
B26240 wrote:
If you guys want to watch a B&S mill (1895ish) cut a spur gear go to " Old steam powered machine shop video 72" Video 71 Dave R shows replacing the lathe type center in the overarm support with a running bushing. Vid 72 Dave cuts the gear with mill powered by steam. |
I just watches video 71 and will watch 72 tomorrow. Excellent video thanks for the info. That place is amazing.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 24 Dec 2022 at 11:59pm |
Dusty MI wrote:
I've got a 14" swing with a 40" bed metal lathe. I think that it was originally line shaft driven, because it looks to have a vertical shaft added that holds an electric motor and an old Ford 3 speed/w reverse transmission, v-belt driven, then transmission v-belt drives the lathe shaft, the shaft has a 3-step flat pulley with the v-pulley added. If I remember right it's a Seneca Lathe. Works nice for me. |
Senecas were very stout, popular for lots of light industrial production. I hosted a 16"x72" rescue Seneca, that like yours had a vertical post-type electric conversion. Many of the Senecas came from factory AS electric drive, and many of the drives had either "Ohio Drive" or "Lima Drive" brands cast into either the input sheave, or into the transmission casting, the earlier 'Ohio' labeled units not only being a truck transmission, they were often actually 4-speed... with the reverse shaft gone, and a 4th gear where the REVERSE gate USED to be. I have a rescued preWW1 lathe about 18" swing in the barn that has a similar drive, too, as well as a Ryerson around 16" from the mid '20's that has the "Lima" casting drive (unfortunately a ham-fisted guy attempted to move it, and dropped it over, fracturing the drive support.
Steve's Ryerson has the same general look as my 26" swing 260" bed Lodge and Shipley... it came out of a shipyard in Mobile, Alabama, where it was probably for 'small parts'... Machines like this prefer to be put in one spot, and used there (i.e. 'not moved around much'). It, and the Cinci #5 vertical, are anxiously awaiting foundations in new building upon which to call 'next working home'.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 25 Dec 2022 at 8:06am |
B26240 wrote:
If you guys want to watch a B&S mill (1895ish) cut a spur gear go to " Old steam powered machine shop video 72" Video 71 Dave R shows replacing the lathe type center in the overarm support with a running bushing. Vid 72 Dave cuts the gear with mill powered by steam. |
I just watched number 72 and it was an awesome video. I’ll be watching all of them. Again thanks for sharing this.
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Dusty MI
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Posted: 25 Dec 2022 at 9:08am |
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Mine has legs under it. I added some blocks under the legs, to make it a little taller, then tray to the legs to catch shavings falling from it.
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 25 Dec 2022 at 9:48am |
My lathe and drill press 
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 25 Dec 2022 at 9:52am |
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 25 Dec 2022 at 8:30pm |
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Thad, I have a 'camelback' lineshaft drill that might actually be identical to yours... I'll hafta wait 'till the ice thaws around the grainery doors to get in there for a look...
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 26 Dec 2022 at 4:00am |
DaveKamp wrote:
Thad, I have a 'camelback' lineshaft drill that might actually be identical to yours... I'll hafta wait 'till the ice thaws around the grainery doors to get in there for a look...
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Dave I’ll go see who made mine? I can’t remember? I’m gonna have to take on a second job just to buy flat belts.
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