Valve spring inserts

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   Was taking apart a WD45 head last night and saw something I hadn't seen before.  This head had been assembled with valve spring inserts under the spring seats.  i researched them on the web a bit, and it seems that they are primarily recommended for high rpm use, aluminum heads, and weak springs.  I'm re-doing the head and not putting them back,but was wondering how often these were used in tractor rebuilds....seems to me that if the springs were weak, it wouldn't cost that much more to just use new springs....or were they thinking something else at the time......

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alan-nj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: oxford, nj Points: 847	Post Options Post Reply Quote alan-nj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Valve spring inserts Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 6:59am
	Was taking apart a WD45 head last night and saw something I hadn't seen before. This head had been assembled with valve spring inserts under the spring seats. i researched them on the web a bit, and it seems that they are primarily recommended for high rpm use, aluminum heads, and weak springs. I'm re-doing the head and not putting them back, but was wondering how often these were used in tractor rebuilds....seems to me that if the springs were weak, it wouldn't cost that much more to just use new springs....or were they thinking something else at the time......
	If ignorance is bliss, than happy days are here again.

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DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21505	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 7:06am
	When valve faces and seats are reconditioned, the compressed spring length/height increases. Those are to place the spring back into a proper height spec.

Fred in Pa Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Hanover Pa. Points: 9210	Post Options Post Reply Quote Fred in Pa Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 7:07am
	When u cut-resurface vales and seats valve goes in head ,shims make up spring compression. If installing new seats and valves u would most likely not need them .Shop done the head that understands how to do job correct. Not just grind everything and put back together
	He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless ,still dead. If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED.

Steve in NJ Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Andover, NJ Points: 11950	Post Options Post Reply Quote Steve in NJ Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 7:13am
	When I used to do a lot of cylinder head work, if the springs were just a tic under the seat poundage rate, a shim would bring the rate back into spec depending on the shim size. For just stock applications, it was faster to do that practice than to wait for new springs to come in which was more down time, and also more cost to the customer. On high performance applications, I would just go with a heavier/larger spring depending on the application. Most of the head work I did in my earlier years was Automotive. (Ford, Chev, Chrysler etc.)
	39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife

alan-nj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: oxford, nj Points: 847	Post Options Post Reply Quote alan-nj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 7:26am
	ok, thanks....head also had rubber umbrella seals. tractor smoked quite a bit on start-up, then exhaust cleared up after running a bit. tractor ran a bit rough and engine wouldn't accelerate smoothly and would bog down under load.....after determining that it wasn't electrical or fuel, figured it was in the valves....clearances were ok, so pulled head and found some pitted valve seats. Also noticed that the radius on the rocker arms is worn quite a bit. Surprisingly though, while the valve guides are worn, the valves themselves don't appear to be real old or worn badly.
	If ignorance is bliss, than happy days are here again.

Butch(OH) Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Lucerne Ohio Points: 3835	Post Options Post Reply Quote Butch(OH) Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 7:46am
	Alan, next time dont guess about the smoke, look When you pull the manifold look at the valve stems through the ports , if wet with oil that is your smoke problem. Use the old valves if decent because they are better quality than the new aftermarket ones. I use the aftermarket guides but look them over carefully as they sometimes get carried away with the radius on top and that is bad. I face them in the lathe before installing and give them a light turn with the deburr tool, that's it. With everything up to snuff leave the umbrellas out when you assemble as they are not needed.

alan-nj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: oxford, nj Points: 847	Post Options Post Reply Quote alan-nj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 7:55am
	Butch....thanks....i did actually look ...and didn't like what i saw....i think the valves are already aftermarket....i'm thinking they did this without replacing the guides or having the seats checked out....put new valves, umbrellas, and inserts and hoped for the best. I'm going to have my local machine shop press the guides in when they look at the seats for me.....i don't have the tool and i'd probably booger them up..!!
	If ignorance is bliss, than happy days are here again.

Allis dave Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 10 May 2012 Location: Northern IN Points: 2998	Post Options Post Reply Quote Allis dave Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 10:35am
	Oops. I had new valves seats put in my 45. Each of my valves had a little flat bottomed bowl (for lack of better term) with one of those shims in it. I just put it all back together how it was when I took it apart.

DrAllis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21505	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrAllis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 10:48am
	Valve stem umbrellas do not belong on a WD-45.

79fordblake Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Location: West Kentucky Points: 829	Post Options Post Reply Quote 79fordblake Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 12:23pm
	I have 512 bucks in my WD45 head. All surfaces machined to be flat. All new springs, valves, seats, guides, freeze plugs. Edited by 79fordblake - 30 Nov 2016 at 12:25pm

Gerald J. Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636	Post Options Post Reply Quote Gerald J. Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 12:36pm
	A running engine test for intake valve stem oil leakage exists. Run the engine fast, close the throttle all the way to create maximum intake manifold vacuum. When the engine gets down to idle speed increase the speed gently. If that maximum intake manifold vacuum pulled oil around the valve stems there will be some blue oil smoke. While valve stem oil seals weren't original they probably won't hurt anything and could give extended valve guide life. Gerald J.

Allis dave Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 10 May 2012 Location: Northern IN Points: 2998	Post Options Post Reply Quote Allis dave Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 1:08pm
	I would think the oil seals could shorten life because as a little oil leaks past it's lubricating the valve guide??

79fordblake Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Location: West Kentucky Points: 829	Post Options Post Reply Quote 79fordblake Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 7:44pm
	I've always heard guides will wear more with added seals.

Dick L Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Edon Ohio Points: 5087	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dick L Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 Dec 2016 at 6:52am
	The only Allis B valve guides I have ever seen this sloppy had stem seals on them. I have no idea of the history of the engine but they had two seals on each valve stem. A head scratcher for sure.