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front tranny seal / 645 payloader

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darrel in ND View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 5:51pm
On my son's 645 payloader that he bought about 4 months ago, the front driveline seal on the transmission was leaking badly right away. We took it apart, found the seal to look reletivly new, but none the less, leaking very badly. The rubber on the seal was ripped about half way around. The son thought he ripped it removing the seal; I wasn't so sure. Anyhow, the sealing surface on the yoke was smooth as glass, and there was absolutely no play in the shaft whatsoever. So we put a new seal in, and called the old one a fluke. New one has held up. .....until today. Seen a puddle under it, and no oil on the dipstick. So I added about 4 gallons. Wasn't leaking at first, most likely because oil was too cold and stiff to leak. But by the time I got done feeding, it was dripping out pretty good. (Or bad, depends on how you look at it). Not nearly as bad as it leaked the first time, but bad enough. It'll still be off the dipstick again by tomorrow, but will just take it a little longer to drain out. Now the seal we took out, and the one we put back in are just a common lip seal. Is there supposed to be a little heavier duty one in there ore something. Like a triple seal, or something with an "O" ring instead of a lip seal. Or am I building up case pressure in the transmission that shouldn't be there. Does the case maybe vent through the dipstick cap. Maybe I need to check that. Or does it vent somewhere else that may be plugged. Or am I chasing the wrong problem. Any help / ideas welcome. Thanks, Darrel
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DMiller View Drop Down
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 5:57pm
Should be a spiral inside the housing designed to pull the oil back from the seal area as on most transmissions I have seen, if not then take out the old seal, measure the seal install bore then measure the shaft diameter. Go to a decent parts house that can look up by dimensions(Bearing Warehouse can do too). Chances are you have the wrong seal in there.

Edited by DMiller - 02 Mar 2019 at 5:57pm
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Jim.ME View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim.ME Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 6:43pm
There is supposed to be a vent. If you turn the loader to the right, and shut it down, so you have some room in the center. Look on the top on the transmission, right side as you are looking at the transmission, near the pump, and you should find it.

Just curious. Was it one of the seals I crossed from the number in the parts book or a different one? You might want to give Minnpar call to see what they have.

Jim
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darrel in ND View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darrel in ND Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 7:43pm
Thanks guys. Jim, I am not sure which seal got put in. I gave my son the numbers that you gave me and he came up with the seal through NAPA. The spiral thing that was mentioned above has my curiosity up. I'll have to look into that. Darrel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim.ME Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 8:43pm
It would be interesting to know what the seal is on the opposite end (to the rear axle) of the shaft,as the same seal is on both ends. But it isn't leaking so don't go there. It seems many of the old seals are being replaced by lighter and thinner ones.
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darrel in ND View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darrel in ND Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 8:49am
Up-date: I have not found a housing vent on the transmission, which concerns me a little. Most likely just haven't been able to see it. Did get a seal that is about twice as heavy or more than the first one we took out, and the one we replaced it with that went out again. I am pretty confident that this new one will hold back a good deal more than the precious ones, but for peace of mind, I'd sure like to get my hands on the vent. Is there any where that a person could get an online parts diagram of the transmission, so I could see just exactly where this elusive case vent is at. Thanks, Darrel
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Jim.ME View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim.ME Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 9:07am
Hi Darrel,

I found the parts books on Minnpar's website. There are a couple different ones but the seals for the drive shaft were the same in the books (I think I checked all of them at the time). I'll see if I can spot the vent again and try to post a link.

Jim
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CAL(KS) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 9:11am
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim.ME Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 9:18am
Here is a link to the Fiat Allis loader parts manual index at Minnpar. 4 choices on the 645s. HTH
Jim

Minnpar Fiat Allis loader parts manuals index page
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CAL(KS) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 9:31am
645 prior to serial 2032.  vent is shown of pg. 81 of pdf

645-b  vent in same place.  guessing they all are  #11




Edited by CAL(KS) - 25 Mar 2019 at 9:38am
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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darrel in ND View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darrel in ND Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 9:59am
Wow! Talk about fast service. Thanks guys. I see in the last picture there that I was looking in all the wrong places. Going to head out here shortly and see what I can find. darrel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 10:02am
The folks in this site are the best. They love their tractors and go above and beyond to help.
HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855,
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CAL(KS) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 10:03am
that and sitting at a desk gets pretty boring sometimes.  lol  Big smile

Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 10:06am
The folks in this site are the best. They love their tractors and go above and beyond to help.
HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855,
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im4racin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote im4racin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 10:09am
I have been texting with Darrel since this came to life this morning.  cal is right.  work is just an excuse to surf the web!

Edited by im4racin - 25 Mar 2019 at 10:11am
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darrel in ND View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darrel in ND Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 10:44am
I have to put in a plug for "im4racin" here. His dad has the Napa store up in Garrison, ND. Him and his dad went out of their way to find me this heavier duty seal. Thanks man! Darrel
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Coke-in-MN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2019 at 4:55pm
I use to use a bearing and seal catalogue I got from a bearing house to cross items between mfg . if I had one part number .
 Also many seals do have different designs as inclusion or exclusion seals - I used a Garlock seal many places - it used a flat fingered spring system rather than the wound spring to hold seal lips in place . 
 There are seals that are double or triple lipped -  You might check also if there is any wear on surface and try a speedy sleeve on shaft to be sure of smooth surface - or like i found on one transmission the bearing was rough and in certain positions as the balls rotated the shaft would jump enough to wipe out seal 
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian Beale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2019 at 4:06am
Coke

One of our local suppliers has a well thumbed copy of (IIRC) an

IBR Bearing Replacement Catalogue. 

It was extremely handy when I was getting our AC 45 going in that it went from Allis part number to bearing maker and type.  Even came up with current Torringtons for the steering box.

Also handy is that the FA 10 dozer parts book gives bearings by part number as expected.  Then at the back is a table that translates Fiat part numbers into standard bearing talk.


Edited by Ian Beale - 27 Mar 2019 at 4:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 1:07pm
Those little tricks and tips had saved a lot of equipment over the years for me both in my job as a Millwright and on my own equipment . 
 Finding a bearing by size but also by type - then finding different types of seals also - from going from old felt seal used on a tractor spindle to a double lip seal and using a more fluid grease in the bearing system . 
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 9:21pm
The steering pump is on that (left) side and may kinda hide that breather
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