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WD45 - engine coming out |
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sploke
Silver Level Joined: 27 Jul 2015 Location: CT Points: 113 |
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That is about what I found. It took me longer to weld up the jig than it did to pull all four liners. Once I got them unseated and up about an inch, I was able to pull them the rest of the way by hand. There is some debris inside the block at the back, furthest from the water pump, so I will clean all that up well before reinstalling.
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WF owner
Orange Level Joined: 12 May 2013 Location: Bombay NY Points: 4419 |
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Some sleeves come out easy. Others you have to really crank on them to get them moving. Usually, after they start, they come easy. After you move them a couple inches, they clear the O rings and come out easily.
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sploke
Silver Level Joined: 27 Jul 2015 Location: CT Points: 113 |
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Thanks for that info. For the pull, did you need to crank on the all-thread until the entire sleeve was clear of the block? Or can you get it halfway or so and then it pulls out freely?
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Sugarmaker
Orange Level Joined: 12 Jul 2013 Location: Albion PA Points: 8168 |
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Sploke,
Yes I have a crude puller for the sleeves. A tube larger than the sleeve, to set on the deck, 1/2 inch thick plate that fits in the bottom of the sleeve, 5/8 allthread through the center. Washers and nut on each end. also apply a little oil to the allthread as needed. Putting them in is a lot easier. Almost by hand with twisting down pressure if your good. I am not that good. I needed a couple taps with a piece of hard wood for the last 3/8 inch. That's for the final o-ring assembly. For just checking sleeve protrusion with out the o-rings they come in and out by hand easily. I guess if you needed to you could have the block magnafluxed for cracks. I had mine checked out. Don has seen a lot of these. That crank end has seen better days! Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Don(MO)
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Bates City MO. Points: 6862 |
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I'd find a crankshaft that set screw hole will not hold and the end of the shaft might even break off someday and the pulley will make a mess of the rad as it try's to get out of there.
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3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.
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sploke
Silver Level Joined: 27 Jul 2015 Location: CT Points: 113 |
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Thanks for the replies...if the leak is not likely coming from the head gasket, then I'm bewildered. The block looks to be in good shape, I don't see any cracks in the webs between the cylinder bores.
I've done the oil pan once before, but yes this time I will be getting the clips, and also doing it on the engine stand. That should be significantly easier than trying to do it all from the bottom of the engine, which is how I did it last time. The rear main seal, where the major oil leak was, i dunno. The felt seals are in there but don't look like they were sealing very well, so hopefully redoing those will solve that issue. I'll follow the steps in the video Don posted, about making sure the top cap is flat and true and all that to set myself up for a good seal. Sugarmaker, did you pull your engine sleeves? If so, how did you get them out and back in again?
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Sugarmaker
Orange Level Joined: 12 Jul 2013 Location: Albion PA Points: 8168 |
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sploke,
I probably cant help you at all other than ramble on? The leak, well you got one response that it may not be the head gasket. If not, then you have more work to do to find the problem?? Others can direct you better than me. That crank end sure looks compromised. Are you going to continue to use this to drive a pump? If not maybe it can be repaired to at least get one good original type set screw. Mine did not have any set screw in it and it was holding enough to run the water pump and alternator just by friction. Not sure about the different lengths of gaskets for the front and rear of the pan. I believe I only got one set in my 45 gasket kit. Don't cut the length. Put them inside a soup can to get them round. Get the clips to help hold the gaskets in place for installation too. well worth the $3 each. You moving right along. Regards, Chris |
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8031 |
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Pretty sure the coolant mess is just a result of separating head from block. It drained out of the head when opened up. Gasket doesn't show signs of leaking from what I see.
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sploke
Silver Level Joined: 27 Jul 2015 Location: CT Points: 113 |
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Got the motor mostly torn down tonight. I'm pretty confident I found the source of the leak - there was a significant amount of coolant on both sides of the head gasket between the coolant ports and the pushrods. It looks like it was leaking on one or both sides of the head gasket.
I'm rethinking my previous plan of replacing the sleeve o-rings. After doing some more research it looks like I'll need some sort of pulling tool to remove the sleeves. Based on the pressure test, I didn't see any leakage around the sleeves, so I'm thinking it might be better to leave well enough alone. From looking and feeling in the coolant paths and around the outside of the sleeves, I don't feel any corrosion or debris in there, so there may not be a compelling reason to mess with it. Tried to get a pic of the wet coolant areas on the head, block and gasket. I have a lot of cleaning to do before I put those back together. Also, I don't know what someone had against the poor crankshaft, but they did a serious number on the front of it for the hydro pump coupling. Several different dimples drilled in and some random weld beads that were sort of ground down. None of the three setscrews in the pulley were tight on the crankshaft, which wasn't helping the cause I'm sure. |
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sploke
Silver Level Joined: 27 Jul 2015 Location: CT Points: 113 |
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Excellent video and super helpful, but you started to talk about the two different lengths of the flat cork gaskets for the oil pan ends, but never came back to it. What is the application difference between the two different sizes?
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WF owner
Orange Level Joined: 12 May 2013 Location: Bombay NY Points: 4419 |
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This is just my opinion, but I would rather find the link before installing a bunch of new parts and then finding there is a problem somewhere that the new parts didn't solve. Sometimes lessons are very expensive!!!
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Sugarmaker
Orange Level Joined: 12 Jul 2013 Location: Albion PA Points: 8168 |
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Your going about it in the right way! One step at a time. Check things out. You will find the leak.
I was at this similar position a year ago. My leak/s were pretty obvious!
Regards, Chris Edited by Sugarmaker - 18 Jun 2019 at 6:34pm |
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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sploke
Silver Level Joined: 27 Jul 2015 Location: CT Points: 113 |
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Awesome, thank you!!
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Don(MO)
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Bates City MO. Points: 6862 |
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This might help you with the oil pan and rear main seal when you get that far.
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3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5642 |
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Aw, man... that hydraulic pump drive concept is nasty. Sheesh...
well, it's apparently the best they could do with what they got... I'm
surprised that the pulley survived all that welding. I dealt with this on the front pump drive for my D17... I thought I had a picture here somewhere... yeah... and here's the shaft I made to extend engine PTO out the front bolster: |
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Dave(inMA)
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Grafton, MA Points: 2395 |
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Nasty looking oil. Hope your search for the failure point works out well.
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WC, CA, D14, WD45
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sploke
Silver Level Joined: 27 Jul 2015 Location: CT Points: 113 |
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I repeated the pressure test..blasted the oil sump/crank area with brake cleaner to clean it up as much as possible and wiped down the bottoms of the sleeves, and cleaned up around the freeze plugs. Pressurized to 7psi and left it for about an hour, again with no visible leakage, weeping or seepage. At this point, I'm thinking it's like DaveKamp says...the leak may be such that it will only manifest under operation at temperature.
I got the engine out, so my current plan is basically preventative measures, i.e. start throwing parts at it :D I need to pull the crank to replace the oil seals there, so I figure I might as well pull the head off as well, replace the head gasket and cylinder sleeve o-rings as potential leak sources as well. The freeze plugs in the head appear pristine, but I'll knock on them a little to make sure they are solidly seated. One question - when you order the oil pan gasket set, it comes with the two formed pieces for the sides of the oil pan, and two pairs of straight gaskets, I'm assuming one for above the main seal and one for below. The pairs are two different lengths...which one goes where? Engine out! This is the pulley/coupling on the front of the crank that goes to the hydro pump to power the FEL. It's an...interesting setup. And the pump location made getting the engine out a real freaking pain. manifold side oil sample...looks awesome, right? it's been sitting for about 2 days in this picture, and you can see some separation in the bottom inch or so of the container. |
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5642 |
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Actually, if you look at the underside edge of the water pump neck, you can see that it's got residue on it that supports the likelyhood of this assertion.... But this doesn't explain the presense of water in the oilpan... and IF he doesn't get any leakage indication with pressure test while pan is off, it's PROBABLY because the block is sealing fine at room temp, but once running, it's got either some loss of seal due to thermal expansion, OR... there's enough of a compression leak through the head gasket, or the head, etc, to 'force' coolant into the oil realm. Double check those cylinder head frost plugs!!!
Edited by DaveKamp - 18 Jun 2019 at 12:21am |
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8031 |
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I agree. Have been there.
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mhankins
Silver Level Joined: 19 Feb 2019 Location: Arkansas Points: 134 |
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You can also get an ultra violet dye to put in the radiator. Don't know if it will get into the entire system,though with out being able to run the engine and circulate it.
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19585 |
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The coolant leak at the water pump hose, is probably NOT the hose. It's the water pump seal leaking onto the hose. I'm just sayin...……...
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Sugarmaker
Orange Level Joined: 12 Jul 2013 Location: Albion PA Points: 8168 |
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Sploke,
Yep looks like you have a WD45 opened up. Don would also tell you that you might as well get ready to pull the engine to do the seals and pan gaskets properly. But back to the finding of the leak. Dr recommends spraying with brake cleaner. I would never have thought of that! I like learning stuff from these guys! Your water contamination was not as bad as mine. And I found my leaks easy as I had cracks between each pair of sleeves! My grandsons younger eyes helped too! My guess is that you have a very small leak but still a leak. Now finding it. The pressure tester, and a good light. Maybe a air hose to blow off any drips? And could it be somewhere not visible?? Good luck I will be watching! Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19585 |
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Take a can of brake kleen and spray it down.
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sploke
Silver Level Joined: 27 Jul 2015 Location: CT Points: 113 |
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Ok...now that the pan has been off for a while and everything that's dripping off the bottom end hopefully has, I can clean it up a bit and check again. With everything under there dripping with dirty oil, it would be hard to see yet another slight leak from one of the sleeves. Once everything else has stopped dripping, it should be easier to spot.
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sploke
Silver Level Joined: 27 Jul 2015 Location: CT Points: 113 |
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I do still have the oil, I had dumped out my catch pan prior to draining the tractor so I'll try that and see how it looks. I'm assuming, if there is a significant amount of coolant in the oil, it should separate out to get an idea of how much is in there?
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8031 |
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I doubt 15 min is enough. Couple hours be more like it. Overnight even better. Antifreeze leaks easier than water alone. Think you will eventually find liner oring dripping.
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Don(MO)
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Bates City MO. Points: 6862 |
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Did you save the oil you removed for the tractor if you did poor some of it in a clear container and let it sit for a day or two and look at and report back.
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3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.
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JoeO(C-MO)
Silver Level Joined: 12 Oct 2009 Location: 3rd Rock > Su Points: 132 |
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I was told the AC radiators should not exceed 7 lbs pressure by the local dealer at the time. Sometime later I took a D15 radiator into a fairly new radiator shop for clean out and a few days later I was informed that it needed a new core. I always thought it had too much pressure used to clean out.
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D10 III, D15 II 3 pt, D15 II SC, 170 Gas w/shuttle, 175 Diesel UI ROPS, 185 w ROPS. AC 653 w/6 way blade, ROPS
AC 615 Ind. WD45 running/Parts. |
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sploke
Silver Level Joined: 27 Jul 2015 Location: CT Points: 113 |
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Well, not I am kind of stumped. I rented the radiator pressure testing kit, hooked it up, and unfortunately (fortunately?) I did not find a smoking gun for a coolant leak. I pressurized the system up to 7lbs and let it sit for about 15 min. It had dropped to maybe 6.5lbs, and I didn't see any evidence of coolant flowing, either under the valve cover or into the oil sump area. I did notice some wetness/seeping around one of the water pump hoses, but that wouldn't explain coolant getting into the oil. Another thing I noticed when I drained the oil, it did smelly extremely gassy. That might be a separate issue. I'm fairly vigilant about closing the fuel petcock when the tractor is not running, so I'm not sure how any volume of gas would make it into the oil just while the tractor is running.
This is what was left in the oil pan when I dropped it...all the oil looked like that. The oil in this tractor has about 10hrs of time on it. Here's a shot under the valve cover. Everything looked good, other than being coated with the chocolate milk oil. Here are a few shots of the crank and pistons...the bottom sides of the pistons look remarkably clean to me, I'm wondering if they've been replaced at some point. Shot of the seepage around the water pump hose |
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sploke
Silver Level Joined: 27 Jul 2015 Location: CT Points: 113 |
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Yes, I am surely hoping it doesn't turn into one of those types of projects...I have enough of those already :D
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