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Concrete poles |
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m16ty
Orange Level Joined: 28 Jan 2011 Location: TN Points: 1474 |
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Posted: 21 Dec 2020 at 9:13pm |
I've been planning on building me another shed to park tractors in. With the crazy price of lumber lately, I've been wondering about maybe using poured concrete poles instead of wood 6x6. I've formed and poured concrete fence post before, but never something like support post for a building. I'm wondering if anybody has ever done this before and will they hold up without cracking?
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 80828 |
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I would think you would want 3 small ( 1/4 or 3/8 inch) rebar in the post in a triangle or square pattern.. With the price of the concrete and steel, do you think the price would be less than the wood ? Then you have the added labor, and some way to attach the beams/ rafters to it ??
I have not calculated it, but there is some "DESIGN" number for diameter, vs length for a concrete post.... I dont think you could make one 6 x 6 inch and 16 ft long ?... But im not sure... i forget what the "ratio" is for design. ... Weight would also be a factor for ease of assembly compared to 6 x 6... One design we have used is 3 of 2 x 6 nailed together to form a 4.5 x 6 post... You get PT 2 x 6 x 10 and 8 ft ... and cut 3 sections 4 -6 -8 ft long and nail together and put 3 ft into the ground... Then you spike STD Pine 2 x 6 to them for the "above ground" portion.
Edited by steve(ill) - 21 Dec 2020 at 9:27pm |
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jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22399 |
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Hmm...interesting idea but I doubt they'd take the stress unless really,really big + rebar, and that's mean big $$$, so wood probably cheaper. maybe cost out concrete and rebar for an 8" post ? ask around, google it... big issue might be building permit( if required). Up here, nect city over demanded a threaded rod put into the 'core' of timber frame bent members... yeah 20' threaded rods !! idiots....er sorry, 'civil engineers'....
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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shameless dude
Orange Level Joined: 10 Apr 2017 Location: east NE Points: 13607 |
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they do it in big buildings all the time and have for prolly a century. like said above....cost? and lots of re-bar, but would outlast you, yer son, his son, and his...on and on...
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farmboy520
Orange Level Access Joined: 22 Jun 2016 Location: Beason, IL Points: 553 |
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I know you said you were going to do it yourself, but they have premade concrete posts that you bury in the ground and have some above ground and then attach post to. They're called perma-column I believe.
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On the farm: Agco Allis 9695, 7060, 7010, R66, Farmall H, and Farmall F20 (Great Grandpa's)
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IBWD MIke
Orange Level Joined: 08 Apr 2012 Location: Newton Ia. Points: 3684 |
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Sonnet tubes. Think they are available at Menard's.
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jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22399 |
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I was thinking he means concrete poles the height of the building, say 12-16 feet tall.... THAT is a huge $$$ both in design and to make.. now if it's just 'below grade', yeah, I saw those permacolumn, but heck 8" sonotubes work fine. maybe a little clarification....as to height of them ??
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 80828 |
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YEA... what i ment by RATIO of the diameter to the height.... I dont know the number, but lets say it is "10"... So if you have a 6 inch diameter post, you can make it 5 ft tall ... If you have a 12 inch diameter column you can make it 10 ft tall.. If its 2 feet in diameter you can make it 20 ft tall ............. Thats how they get them BIG TALL concrete columns in the Mall / Buildings ........ and i dont know "10" is the real number... it might be "20"... and the more rebar the BETTER... and the HIGHER COST.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 80828 |
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Slenderness Ratio -----------
Design of Slender Concrete ColumnsJan, 2013 By Tanner Wytroval and Robin Tuchscherer, Ph.D., P.E. In Articles, Codes and Standards Comments 0 When designing a column, structural engineers must evaluate the impact of second order or P-∆ effects to determine if loads applied to a structure in its deformed position significantly increase internal forces (i.e. by more than 5%). Typically, second order effects of this magnitude occur when a column is slender; that is, when its height-to-width ratio is greater than approximately 10. If a column is slender, engineers must consider either an elastic second order analysis or they may analyze the column by the moment magnification procedure contained within the Building Code Requirements for Structural Concrete (ACI 318-11). in other words, if your 6 inch concrete post is more than 5 ft ( above ground) maybe 8 ft total height... YOU BETTER KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING !!. Edited by steve(ill) - 22 Dec 2020 at 9:08am |
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Dave974
Bronze Level Joined: 18 Aug 2017 Location: Fort Wayne, IN Points: 77 |
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Not sure what your timeframe is for getting started but if you can hold off for a couple months, lumber prices may be dropping.
I'm working with a lumber yard to add onto one of my barns. When I talked to them in October, their lumber buyer was thinking that prices will be coming back down to pre-covid levels soon. So I'm holding off and will check again in the spring. Apparently during the lockdowns this spring, a bunch of people decided to build decks and all sorts of other projects. That caused a huge run on lumber, especially treated stuff. At the same time, many of the mills were forced to shut down. Apparently they have been up and running full speed since summer but it will take until first quarter 2021 to fully catch up. When they do, prices are expected to drop back down. Of course, that info is from before the latest wave of covid-craziness, so who knows. We'll see........
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tadams(OH)
Orange Level Access Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Location: Jeromesville, O Points: 10093 |
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Then the huricanes hit the south and the lumber price made another jump up by it should settling down now
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john(MI)
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: SE MI Points: 9262 |
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I suspect if you are talking about above ground concrete poles, they would need to be in a climate controlled building. Probably wouldn't take but a couple years outside before they started eroding from the elements.
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Dusty MI
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Charlotte, Mi Points: 5056 |
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It's been a few years since I saw it but in Fl. not very far from where the Florida Fly Wheelers grounds is a place that makes very large concrete power poles. They tapered and hollow.
Edited by Dusty MI - 22 Dec 2020 at 8:04pm |
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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FREEDGUY
Orange Level Access Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5391 |
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Funny that you mention the $ of lumber coming down . I just talked to a local contractor 6 hours ago that said lumber "might" flatten out $ wise in the next 3 weeks, but is scheduled to SKYROCKET to twice of the current prices as of 2 days ago within 2 months
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jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22399 |
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yeah 'supply and demand'.. they got the supply so they DEMAND high prices..and get it... hmm concrete ulity poles....always bolted to a buried chunk of concrete. they are all tapered, bet they ain't cheap.. call for price ?? heck they got specs online !!! heck, even better ... local sales guy emailed me( I thought they'd be closed( cv19)).. anyway , basic 30' class c pole is $1500 Canucks... they have to 'engineer it' for stresses and stuff but...it does sound possible....however $1500 'should' buy a LOT of PT post ?? Jay
Edited by jaybmiller - 23 Dec 2020 at 10:50am |
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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Coke
Silver Level Joined: 30 Sep 2018 Location: MIdwest Points: 215 |
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Last I checked, concrete was still bloody expensive, which is why my shed still has a dirt floor.
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1957 D17 Diesel w/ M&W Pistons
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Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41549 |
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Concrete in structural form is used every day in building both in columns, floors, walls , and even poles . Might check with a pre-stressed concrete supplier on what is out there .
I did several house basement excavations where superior wall product was used , precast concrete with nailer's set in concrete and insulation cast into it also - bolt flanges on end of each 8' section to join to next section . these were set on a trench or compacted rock so no footing except rock trench . Full building both below and above ground portions use similar systems . Another building I worked on used 8' x 20' x 6" prestressed concrete slabs stood vertical on a concrete footing so the slabs were buried 3' into ground so interior ceiling was set on bar joists allowing 16' height inside . . My tuck under garage on this house has a prestressed concrete ceiling that is also the floor to the room above interior of the garage is free span of 25' with the 3' planks topped with 3" of concrete . |
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 30971 |
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Red Iron Buildings, Full Footer with Bolting standards and I beam from there up, NO Trusses just pitched end plated steel beams so Head Height opens up. Insulation gets laid across purlins and girts sheeting screwed to those purlins and girts. Gravel backfill with concrete floor. Just priced a 50x100 and a 40x100 for when/if we sell here and move. Construct is less than a week to framed once concrete reaches strength to hold beams. Price was 2/3 the cost of a Stud Construct on footer wooden building. Can then build INSIDE with framing lumber within the beams and set up a Home at one end, shop or storage the other or rest.
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m16ty
Orange Level Joined: 28 Jan 2011 Location: TN Points: 1474 |
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Current pricing for treated 6x6x16 is $100 each. A 6x6x16 concrete post contains 4 cubic feet. I can mix my own concrete for less than $50 per yd. So that means I can make a 6x6x16 concrete post for less than $10 in concrete plus rebar. I’ve got a pile of rebar I got off a job they were going to throw away. That is what got me to thinking about it.
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Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41549 |
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Make a form to the length you need , then on what is going to be the outside face of posts lay in a 2x4 and on inside face another one o between those 2 side use your rebar and wire the 2 side 2x4 into rebar - pour and let cure - strip and you have post . You could put a platform into top of post to bolt your truss to also with bolt set into form before pouring .
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 80828 |
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well, there are a dozen movies on you- tube about building concrete posts... almost every one is from overseas... and they tend to be 10 ft or shorter.... but here is the idea.. cheapest version seems to be a wood form ..... oil the inside ( or have screwed together so you can take it apart) ... put down 1 inch concrete, drop in a couple rebar... add 4 inches concrete... more rebar.. and an inch of concrete on top... as Coke said, you need to put a wood knock off form on the top to eventually set a rafter onto, etc..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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m16ty
Orange Level Joined: 28 Jan 2011 Location: TN Points: 1474 |
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Like I said above, I know I can make 6x6 concrete post much cheaper than you can buy treated wood post, but what I don't know is if a 6x6 concrete post would be strong enough.
I'm thinking I could just hammer drill a hole to attach the wood rafters. What I need to do is quit buying tractors and other junk, and I wouldn't need another shed.
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IBWD MIke
Orange Level Joined: 08 Apr 2012 Location: Newton Ia. Points: 3684 |
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What I need to do is quit buying tractors and other junk, and I wouldn't need another shed. [/QUOTE] What fun would that be?? My machine shed went down last August, won't be a new one up until probably October. Still buying 'things'. Some will just have to be outside a while.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 30971 |
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Spoke to my Brother the Civil Engineer. 6x6 Concrete does not have enough strength even with rerod to stand 10' above grade and support a structure. Needs to be at least 8x8 or better still 12x12 with fibermesh concrete and rerod cages. Concrete lamp posts and similar are Spun poured to eliminate voids, have mesh as well a column of supports internally but are only designed for supporting a lamp and lamp standard in a specified wind speed. They taper to nearly 12x12 at the buried base.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 80828 |
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YEP..... concrete has very little STRENGTH in bending... Only in compression ( down ward force)... Its the REBAR that does all the STRENGTH part.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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m16ty
Orange Level Joined: 28 Jan 2011 Location: TN Points: 1474 |
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That’s what I was afraid of. I did the math, and I can still pour 12x12 poles cheaper than wood, but when you get that big you have to start worrying how are you going to handle them, and forming them in place presents other problems. Guess I’ll just stick with the tried and true treated post. I’m not holding my breath for lumber to come down. I started planning this project back in the summer, everybody has been saying since summer “hold off a couple of months, lumber prices are fixing to fall”, but it just keeps going up. |
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jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22399 |
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yeah, maybe cheaper to build .....but... worst case scenario.... posts are in, beams attached, trusses going up and a minor wind comes along.....one post begins to fracture due to poor,improper cure( you didn't wait 31 days...), it splits apart, 'domino effect'...all posts selfdestruct, trusses busted, etc.... hopefully you escape with only a big hole in your wallet........ BTW you can't use 'regular' concrete mixes....... lumber prices will have to come down come Spring21, otherwise the guv will have to bail out all the house building contractors and trades....ka-ching, ka-ching..... or open up soup kitchens.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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Ray54
Orange Level Access Joined: 22 Nov 2009 Location: Paso Robles, Ca Points: 4498 |
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Have you given pipe posts any thought? I put a hay barn up in 2015. Ten inch pipe posts 20 feet out of the ground.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 80828 |
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You can also laminate the post.. build them out of 3 or 4 2 x 6.. PT in the ground, above ground can be pine.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Dusty MI
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Charlotte, Mi Points: 5056 |
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And when you do laminate, you can pocket the trusses in the posts. Dusty
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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