Concrete poles
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Topic: Concrete poles
Posted By: m16ty
Subject: Concrete poles
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2020 at 9:13pm
| I've been planning on building me another shed to park tractors in. With the crazy price of lumber lately, I've been wondering about maybe using poured concrete poles instead of wood 6x6. I've formed and poured concrete fence post before, but never something like support post for a building. I'm wondering if anybody has ever done this before and will they hold up without cracking? |
Replies:
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2020 at 9:25pm
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I would think you would want 3 small ( 1/4 or 3/8 inch) rebar in the post in a triangle or square pattern.. With the price of the concrete and steel, do you think the price would be less than the wood ? Then you have the added labor, and some way to attach the beams/ rafters to it ?? I have not calculated it, but there is some "DESIGN" number for diameter, vs length for a concrete post.... I dont think you could make one 6 x 6 inch and 16 ft long ?... But im not sure... i forget what the "ratio" is for design. ... Weight would also be a factor for ease of assembly compared to 6 x 6... One design we have used is 3 of 2 x 6 nailed together to form a 4.5 x 6 post... You get PT 2 x 6 x 10 and 8 ft ... and cut 3 sections 4 -6 -8 ft long and nail together and put 3 ft into the ground... Then you spike STD Pine 2 x 6 to them for the "above ground" portion.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2020 at 9:26pm
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Hmm...interesting idea but I doubt they'd take the stress unless really,really big + rebar, and that's mean big $$$, so wood probably cheaper. maybe cost out concrete and rebar for an 8" post ? ask around, google it... big issue might be building permit( if required). Up here, nect city over demanded a threaded rod put into the 'core' of timber frame bent members... yeah 20' threaded rods !! idiots....er sorry, 'civil engineers'.... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: shameless dude
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2020 at 10:57pm
| they do it in big buildings all the time and have for prolly a century. like said above....cost? and lots of re-bar, but would outlast you, yer son, his son, and his...on and on... |
Posted By: farmboy520
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 6:08am
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I know you said you were going to do it yourself, but they have premade concrete posts that you bury in the ground and have some above ground and then attach post to. They're called perma-column I believe. ------------- On the farm: Agco Allis 9695, 7060, 7010, R66, Farmall H, and Farmall F20 (Great Grandpa's) |
Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 8:10am
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Sonnet tubes. Think they are available at Menard's. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 8:20am
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I was thinking he means concrete poles the height of the building, say 12-16 feet tall.... THAT is a huge $$$ both in design and to make.. now if it's just 'below grade', yeah, I saw those permacolumn, but heck 8" sonotubes work fine. maybe a little clarification....as to height of them ?? ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 8:54am
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YEA... what i ment by RATIO of the diameter to the height.... I dont know the number, but lets say it is "10"... So if you have a 6 inch diameter post, you can make it 5 ft tall ... If you have a 12 inch diameter column you can make it 10 ft tall.. If its 2 feet in diameter you can make it 20 ft tall ............. Thats how they get them BIG TALL concrete columns in the Mall / Buildings ........ and i dont know "10" is the real number... it might be "20"... and the more rebar the BETTER... and the HIGHER COST. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 9:06am
Slenderness Ratio -----------https://www.structuremag.org/?p=1005" rel="nofollow - Design of Slender Concrete ColumnsJan, 2013 By https://www.structuremag.org/?author_name=tannerwytroval" rel="nofollow - Tanner Wytroval and https://www.structuremag.org/?author_name=robintuchscherer" rel="nofollow - Robin Tuchscherer, Ph.D., P.E. In https://www.structuremag.org/?cat=189" rel="nofollow - Articles , https://www.structuremag.org/?cat=30" rel="nofollow - Codes and Standards https://www.structuremag.org/?p=1005#respond" rel="nofollow - When designing a column, structural engineers must evaluate the impact of second order or P-∆ effects to determine if loads applied to a structure in its deformed position significantly increase internal forces (i.e. by more than 5%). Typically, second order effects of this magnitude occur when a column is slender; that is, when its height-to-width ratio is greater than approximately 10. If a column is slender, engineers must consider either an elastic second order analysis or they may analyze the column by the moment magnification procedure contained within the Building Code Requirements for Structural Concrete (ACI 318-11). in other words, if your 6 inch concrete post is more than 5 ft ( above ground) maybe 8 ft total height... YOU BETTER KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING !!. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Dave974
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 9:25am
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Not sure what your timeframe is for getting started but if you can hold off for a couple months, lumber prices may be dropping. I'm working with a lumber yard to add onto one of my barns. When I talked to them in October, their lumber buyer was thinking that prices will be coming back down to pre-covid levels soon. So I'm holding off and will check again in the spring. Apparently during the lockdowns this spring, a bunch of people decided to build decks and all sorts of other projects. That caused a huge run on lumber, especially treated stuff. At the same time, many of the mills were forced to shut down. Apparently they have been up and running full speed since summer but it will take until first quarter 2021 to fully catch up. When they do, prices are expected to drop back down. Of course, that info is from before the latest wave of covid-craziness, so who knows. We'll see........
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Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 2:23pm
| Then the huricanes hit the south and the lumber price made another jump up by it should settling down now |
Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 4:44pm
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I suspect if you are talking about above ground concrete poles, they would need to be in a climate controlled building. Probably wouldn't take but a couple years outside before they started eroding from the elements. ------------- D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446 |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 8:02pm
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It's been a few years since I saw it but in Fl. not very far from where the Florida Fly Wheelers grounds is a place that makes very large concrete power poles. They tapered and hollow.
------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2020 at 9:06pm
Funny that you mention the $ of lumber coming down
 . I just talked to a local contractor 6 hours ago that said lumber "might" flatten out $ wise in the next 3 weeks, but is scheduled to SKYROCKET to twice of the current prices as of 2 days ago within 2 months  |
Dave974 wrote:Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2020 at 8:53am
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yeah 'supply and demand'.. they got the supply so they DEMAND high prices..and get it... hmm concrete ulity poles....always bolted to a buried chunk of concrete. they are all tapered, bet they ain't cheap.. call for price ?? https://www.scgrp.com/utilitypoles/specifications/pole-specifications-chart" rel="nofollow - https://www.scgrp.com/utilitypoles/specifications/pole-specifications-chart heck they got specs online !!! heck, even better ... local sales guy emailed me( I thought they'd be closed( cv19)).. anyway , basic 30' class c pole is $1500 Canucks... they have to 'engineer it' for stresses and stuff but...it does sound possible....however $1500 'should' buy a LOT of PT post ?? Jay
------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Coke
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2020 at 12:12pm
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Last I checked, concrete was still bloody expensive, which is why my shed still has a dirt floor. ------------- 1957 D17 Diesel w/ M&W Pistons |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2020 at 1:26pm
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Concrete in structural form is used every day in building both in columns, floors, walls , and even poles . Might check with a pre-stressed concrete supplier on what is out there . I did several house basement excavations where superior wall product was used , precast concrete with nailer's set in concrete and insulation cast into it also - bolt flanges on end of each 8' section to join to next section . these were set on a trench or compacted rock so no footing except rock trench . Full building both below and above ground portions use similar systems . Another building I worked on used 8' x 20' x 6" prestressed concrete slabs stood vertical on a concrete footing so the slabs were buried 3' into ground so interior ceiling was set on bar joists allowing 16' height inside . . My tuck under garage on this house has a prestressed concrete ceiling that is also the floor to the room above interior of the garage is free span of 25' with the 3' planks topped with 3" of concrete . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2020 at 5:12pm
| Red Iron Buildings, Full Footer with Bolting standards and I beam from there up, NO Trusses just pitched end plated steel beams so Head Height opens up. Insulation gets laid across purlins and girts sheeting screwed to those purlins and girts. Gravel backfill with concrete floor. Just priced a 50x100 and a 40x100 for when/if we sell here and move. Construct is less than a week to framed once concrete reaches strength to hold beams. Price was 2/3 the cost of a Stud Construct on footer wooden building. Can then build INSIDE with framing lumber within the beams and set up a Home at one end, shop or storage the other or rest. |
Posted By: m16ty
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2020 at 7:32pm
| Current pricing for treated 6x6x16 is $100 each. A 6x6x16 concrete post contains 4 cubic feet. I can mix my own concrete for less than $50 per yd. So that means I can make a 6x6x16 concrete post for less than $10 in concrete plus rebar. I’ve got a pile of rebar I got off a job they were going to throw away. That is what got me to thinking about it. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2020 at 8:03pm
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Make a form to the length you need , then on what is going to be the outside face of posts lay in a 2x4 and on inside face another one o between those 2 side use your rebar and wire the 2 side 2x4 into rebar - pour and let cure - strip and you have post . You could put a platform into top of post to bolt your truss to also with bolt set into form before pouring . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2020 at 8:39pm
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well, there are a dozen movies on you- tube about building concrete posts... almost every one is from overseas... and they tend to be 10 ft or shorter.... but here is the idea.. cheapest version seems to be a wood form ..... oil the inside ( or have screwed together so you can take it apart) ... put down 1 inch concrete, drop in a couple rebar... add 4 inches concrete... more rebar.. and an inch of concrete on top... as Coke said, you need to put a wood knock off form on the top to eventually set a rafter onto, etc.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXR14Pk1FrQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXR14Pk1FrQ ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: m16ty
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2020 at 9:51pm
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Like I said above, I know I can make 6x6 concrete post much cheaper than you can buy treated wood post, but what I don't know is if a 6x6 concrete post would be strong enough. I'm thinking I could just hammer drill a hole to attach the wood rafters. What I need to do is quit buying tractors and other junk, and I wouldn't need another shed.
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Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2020 at 8:51am
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What I need to do is quit buying tractors and other junk, and I wouldn't need another shed. [/QUOTE] What fun would that be?? My machine shed went down last August, won't be a new one up until probably October. Still buying 'things'. Some will just have to be outside a while.
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2020 at 9:02am
| Spoke to my Brother the Civil Engineer. 6x6 Concrete does not have enough strength even with rerod to stand 10' above grade and support a structure. Needs to be at least 8x8 or better still 12x12 with fibermesh concrete and rerod cages. Concrete lamp posts and similar are Spun poured to eliminate voids, have mesh as well a column of supports internally but are only designed for supporting a lamp and lamp standard in a specified wind speed. They taper to nearly 12x12 at the buried base. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2020 at 9:26am
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YEP..... concrete has very little STRENGTH in bending... Only in compression ( down ward force)... Its the REBAR that does all the STRENGTH part. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: m16ty
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2020 at 10:02am
That’s what I was afraid of. I did the math, and I can still pour 12x12 poles cheaper than wood, but when you get that big you have to start worrying how are you going to handle them, and forming them in place presents other problems. Guess I’ll just stick with the tried and true treated post. I’m not holding my breath for lumber to come down. I started planning this project back in the summer, everybody has been saying since summer “hold off a couple of months, lumber prices are fixing to fall”, but it just keeps going up. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2020 at 10:18am
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yeah, maybe cheaper to build .....but... worst case scenario.... posts are in, beams attached, trusses going up and a minor wind comes along.....one post begins to fracture due to poor,improper cure( you didn't wait 31 days...), it splits apart, 'domino effect'...all posts selfdestruct, trusses busted, etc.... hopefully you escape with only a big hole in your wallet........ BTW you can't use 'regular' concrete mixes....... lumber prices will have to come down come Spring21, otherwise the guv will have to bail out all the house building contractors and trades....ka-ching, ka-ching..... or open up soup kitchens. ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2020 at 2:17pm
| Have you given pipe posts any thought? I put a hay barn up in 2015. Ten inch pipe posts 20 feet out of the ground. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2020 at 2:36pm
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You can also laminate the post.. build them out of 3 or 4 2 x 6.. PT in the ground, above ground can be pine. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2020 at 7:38pm
And when you do laminate, you can pocket the trusses in the posts. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: Donaker
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2021 at 7:59am
| Yep, the price for lumber today after hurricanes is too high. Using concrete poles instead of wood 6x6ms is more complex than lumber poles. I don't know much about building a shed with concrete poles. You might need to use the concrete contractors' company at least for planning your building. When I met this kind of problem building a new shed for my car, I went to professionals in my area http://fremontconcretepros.com" rel="nofollow - fremontconcretepros.com , this company solved my problem, after the hurricane I needed only to do a small repair on the roof. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2021 at 6:06pm
OK just picked this one. First off 6x6 concrete will flex with side loading, thus that factor of 10 rule, as they flex they stress fracture and allow moisture in, degrade the resilience of the concrete and allows moisture to the steel re-rod, it corrodes and stresses the concrete further by expansion of said rust. Failure in a few years at best. That is the reason Concrete Columns in any exposed construction tend to be LARGE Diameter.
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Posted By: Lars(wi)
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2021 at 6:41pm
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Why not get used telephone poles? Heck, buy new ones? ------------- I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science. |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2021 at 10:47pm
| hear if you buy the sand rock and portland cement it is stil over 100$ dollars a yard and that isnot the cost of hauling the product that waas what it cost us five years ago we hand mixed 15 yards ready mix hear is 185 delivered we was going to have a pad poured behind our shop this year steel is still the cheapest for a equipment shed |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2021 at 4:36am
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IF determined to go Wood, expand on some considerations. Wood post generally do not rot off Below Grade, they rot At grade where the Biologic critters live, treating only preserves the post against insects, not fungus or bacteria which essentially is what creates the rot. Wrapping the Wood post with tar glued plastic and are post wraps available to do same thing, well above grade line will reduce the problem just not eliminate it. Are several new materials to fill the holes instead of conventional stone millings or screenings(IE Concrete Foam), can even set Piers some 30-48" into soil with a Post anchor on top set to Height where the post themselves will not be wetted or available to munching microbes. As Wood product pricing continues to lower, wood again can compete against steel supports done similarly to last response.
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Posted By: MichaelSavan
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2022 at 10:57am
| I don't think it's a great idea if you've never built or studied concrete foundations for buildings. It's an extremely precise job that requires a lot of planning and calculation. The surface has to be very level, which is quite difficult to arrange. It is best if you use some tools for this, which you may not have. Also, the materials, including tools, may not be cheaper than wood. So I honestly don't see the point in such an endeavor. However, if you want a concrete floor, I suggest hiring professionals from http://https://www.jmballaratconcreters.com.au/" rel="nofollow - jmballaratconcreters.com.au to get it done perfectly. Or try to do it another way |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2022 at 4:36pm
| Another option, Scrap or Seconds Pipe Sales. We have one in Owensville MO. 6x6 or 4x6 Square Steel pipe or even tube(Thinner wall) set a mounting bolt square in a concrete pier, drill pads and weld to one end of pipe, set pipes, can add plates with drilled holes for Girts and still build pole barn style., "L" Saddle at the top for truss nailer plate. Set them 6 or 8'OC at the ends diagonal brace reverse from each end and will be solid, secure, square. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2022 at 11:35pm
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"
It is pretty hard to do it alone." Spammer necroposting. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: shameless dude
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2022 at 11:00pm
| just checked with local concrete company for price of concrete for our new home....quoted $150. a yard |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2022 at 6:05am
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and it weighs 150# per cubic foot.... so costs 4 cents per pound hay, I woke up to WHITE this morning !!!! grrr..... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |