| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Allis Wd45 
Bronze Level
Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Location: Washington
Points: 170
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: Wd45 Pto troubles
Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 2:37pm |
|
So, long story I was running our Pto manure agitator with my Wd45 and the Pto shaft came apart when I was dumping a load of manure when I came back to the tank the tractors PTO shaft was bent and the Ujoint piece of the agitator shaft had beaten around on the back of the tractor until it bent the tractors shaft and the PTO was still in gear and it wasn’t turning. I tore it down lastnight and the small gear Intermediate gear is missing 3/4 of its teeth the idler gear is missing a few teeth and the slider gear is missing a tooth. So I’ll need a new intermediate gear, Idler and Sliding gear that engages the pto and the shaft. Would you guys recommend getting new gears or finding good used ones? I also have to get that intermediate gear off I have heard that you can remove the frame rail and get it through the hydraulic pump hole or split the tractor behind the transmission. What is the best way to get to it, it also leaks hydraulic oil into the transmission so I would like to fix that while it’s apart also. Thanks
|
|
WD45
IH Cub Cadet 149,1650,1250
#2 Cart, IH#2 Tiller
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
Sugarmaker
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
Points: 8269
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 2:53pm |
Allis WD45, Well I had all this stuff out of my last project. I dont know if new gears are avaialble Might try Alex, or Sandy Lake? Might have to find good used unit/ gears?? I believe you have to take the center section out That is between the bell housing and the transmission? I am not the expert on this I do have some pictures if that would help. If you want to change the seals, Which I did also now would be the time. Other things would be to review hand clutch condition and the main clutch too. Regards, Chris
|
|
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
|
|
Sugarmaker
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
Points: 8269
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 3:00pm |
Here are some pictures if it will help. Maybe there are different ways to do this repair? Others with more experience will chime in. These may not help you? Sounds like you have a pretty good idea about changing the gears.
Regards, |
|
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
|
|
Rick
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Jonesburg,Mo.
Points: 3651
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 3:27pm |
|
Aaron...I believe I do have all three gears...message me. Rick
|
|
B26240
Orange Level
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
Location: mn
Points: 3860
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 4:10pm |
if all you had wrong was the intermediate gear you can change that thru the pump and pto holes without removing frame rail or splitting tractor work best with a helper but sounds like you have a long list to fix. Sugarmaker gave you good advice, time for fixing everything in the case.
|
|
Allis Wd45
Bronze Level
Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Location: Washington
Points: 170
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 6:07pm |
|
Okay, can I take it I can get the hydraulic pump wiggled out without taking the frame rail off. The only thing I want to fix inside the tractor besides the intermediate gear is the hydraulic oil leaking into the transmission. If it comes down to splitting it I will probably also do the clutches then too. What is usually the cause of Hydraulic Oil leaking into the Transmission? Thanks again Sugarmaker, Thanks for posting the pictures they help also.
|
|
WD45
IH Cub Cadet 149,1650,1250
#2 Cart, IH#2 Tiller
|
|
Sugarmaker
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
Points: 8269
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 7:55pm |
Allis Wd45, I believe the seals your asking about are around this portion of the main drive shaft. IIRC they are installed from the inside of the case. Also this picture shows how not to install the PTO gear system! Hint They have to go in after the bearing and upper drive gear are in place.
Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 18 Dec 2019 at 6:37am
|
|
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
|
|
Bill Long
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Bel Air, MD
Points: 4556
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 9:36pm |
Allis WD45, I cannot help on replacing the intermediate gear since we did not have do that. However, one trick we used with the hydrallic pump removal was we usually flattened the end of some spikes, pushed in the hyd pump pistons and jammed them into the low position by using the spikes as a wedge. That gives you a little more clearance to get the pump out without removing the side rail. In fact, if you wiggle it right you can get it out without jamming the vales down. I have to agree with what is said above that, if you intend to use the tractor as much as you do, that while it is out review what items you want to work on so when re-assembled you will have a good working tractor. Good Luck! Bill Long
|
|
Allis Wd45
Bronze Level
Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Location: Washington
Points: 170
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Dec 2019 at 12:09am |
|
It probably seems like I'm going back to square one here but how do you get the intermediate gear out? What is that bolt with the wire holding in? Does anyone have an idea on where the hydraulic oil can get into the transmission at? Thanks again sorry for all the questions just don't want to tear down a bunch of stuff that's not necessary.
|
|
WD45
IH Cub Cadet 149,1650,1250
#2 Cart, IH#2 Tiller
|
|
Sugarmaker
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
Points: 8269
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Dec 2019 at 6:50am |
 Allis Wd45 wrote:
It probably seems like I'm going back to square one here but how do you get the intermediate gear out? What is that bolt with the wire holding in? Does anyone have an idea on where the hydraulic oil can get into the transmission at? Thanks again sorry for all the questions just don't want to tear down a bunch of stuff that's not necessary. |
I am not the best guy on this but I will give it a try. I believe the gear you speak of is the large gear on the shaft with the bolt. Well that shaft has to come out to remove that gear assembly.
The bolt has a taper on if I remember correctly it locates the pin that the gears ride on.
The hydraulic oil travels between the transmission and the hyd reservoir thur bad seals on the main drive shaft. The seals are back to back.
Others with more experience will help you better than me. Regards, Chris
|
|
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
|
|
Lon(MN)
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Elk River,MN
Points: 1965
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Dec 2019 at 7:54am |
|
I have all those parts on the shelf for sale. email lselkriver@gmail.com. Gear set is $50
|
|
Alex09(WI)
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Location: CECIL WI
Points: 1699
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Dec 2019 at 8:44am |
Allis Wd45 wrote:
So, long story I was running our Pto manure agitator with my Wd45 and the Pto shaft came apart when I was dumping a load of manure when I came back to the tank the tractors PTO shaft was bent and the Ujoint piece of the agitator shaft had beaten around on the back of the tractor until it bent the tractors shaft and the PTO was still in gear and it wasn’t turning. I tore it down lastnight and the small gear Intermediate gear is missing 3/4 of its teeth the idler gear is missing a few teeth and the slider gear is missing a tooth. So I’ll need a new intermediate gear, Idler and Sliding gear that engages the pto and the shaft. Would you guys recommend getting new gears or finding good used ones? I also have to get that intermediate gear off I have heard that you can remove the frame rail and get it through the hydraulic pump hole or split the tractor behind the transmission. What is the best way to get to it, it also leaks hydraulic oil into the transmission so I would like to fix that while it’s apart also. Thanks |
If you do not want to fix your seals that are causing the hyd oil to leak into the transmission oil, then you do not have to split the tractor to replace just the intermediate PTO gear. Your seals that are in front of the hand clutch and pto drive gear are between the hyd compartement and the transmission oil compartment. There are 2 seals back to back like Sugarmaker says (see his picture) that are shot causing the oil to leak into the trans fluid. To replace those seals, you have to split the tractor in front of the transmission and remove the hand clutch and the pto drive gear.
It is possible to replace the intermediate pto gear without splitting the tractor. Remove the hydraulic pump and the pto gearbox. Remove the RH channel iron side frame and remove the small tapered bolt. Slide or press the Intermediate pto gear shaft into the hyd pump compartment and the intermediate pto gears and washers will come out through the bottom hole where the pto gearbox was bolted.
MAKE SURE you have the proper shear bolt holding the pto shaft to the pto gearbox output stub!! That protects the gears that you have just shelled the teeth off of. I have the shear bolts new or used and I also have the gears (used) you need but I see a couple guys beat me to it. To answer you r question about used vs new gears, if you put the proper shear bolt in, good used gears will suffice. If you a perfectionist, go with new gears, an AGCO dealer should have them, but I expect they would be pricy compared to $50-$150 for the 3 used ones you need.
|
|
www.awtractor.com
A&W TRACTOR 920-598-1287
KEEPING ALLIS-CHALMERS IN THE FIELDS THROUGH THE 21ST CENTURY
|
|
SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
Points: 8218
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Dec 2019 at 9:54am |
|
You can leave the frame rail in place. The pump comes up and out,won't go out the bottom. Takes a little squeeze against rollers but not bad. Wedge roller arms with nails like Bill says and they fall back in place. Getting shaft slid back and forth can be challenging.Need some thick grease to hold the hidden washer in place. Just remember,IT CAN BE DONE. You may have moments that you don't think we know what we're talking about.
|
|
Ray
Orange Level
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Points: 1979
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Dec 2019 at 9:59am |
|
Sir
Sorry to hear of your break down.I would have the parts on the shelf.
Slider gear 25 tooth: no 224527
Idler gear 18 tooth: no 203236
Intermeter gear 19 tooth and 33 tooth; 227323
Pto shaft no 22266
Good,used,original
$265.00 for every thing.
Thank You and Good Luck
|
|
Allis Wd45
Bronze Level
Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Location: Washington
Points: 170
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Dec 2019 at 3:21pm |
|
Thanks for the Responses I got the Hydraulic Pump out and it looks like it was due to have the sludge cleaned out of the hydraulic pump cavity. I'm going to see if I can get the intermediate gear out without splitting the tractor. But I might end up splitting it anyway so I can fix the Hydraulic oil into transmission leak. Since its this far apart can you tell the condition of the hand clutch without taking it apart? It works fine but if I'm already that far into it and it looks like it could be replaced I might as well do it.
|
|
WD45
IH Cub Cadet 149,1650,1250
#2 Cart, IH#2 Tiller
|
|
SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
Points: 8218
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Dec 2019 at 7:54pm |
|
Difficult to see how worn plates are when together in tractor. If it snaps in tight and doesn't slip or pop out when lever bounces from a bump,I wouldn't worry about it. If a little soft you just remove a shim or two(equal at 3 positions) and try it. If the Shims are gone ,the clutch is about there too.
|
|
Allis Wd45
Bronze Level
Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Location: Washington
Points: 170
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 Dec 2019 at 9:28pm |
|
Ok, It dont pop out or slip I can see if there are shims there but I might just leave it.
|
|
WD45
IH Cub Cadet 149,1650,1250
#2 Cart, IH#2 Tiller
|
|
Phil48ACWC
Silver Level
Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Location: Vermont
Points: 288
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Dec 2019 at 5:53am |
|
|
|
Sugarmaker
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
Points: 8269
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Dec 2019 at 8:13am |
Allis wd45,
1. seals:
this is the forward seal in the bell housing:
PTO drive gear and shaft out.
Just the shaft and the collars:
If you do split the tractor: i had to use a puller to remove the gear that drives the PTO: There is a snap ring that holds it in place that has to come off first:
This is the driving flange that your hand clutch bolts too. 4 bolts with lock tabs.
If you have the hand clutch out might as well check this bronze bearing where the two shafts mate too. Mine was bad:
Found this you have to have the bearing in place before you install the PTO gear assembly: 2. If you split the tractor the hand clutch can be removed easily. On the inspection process: There are three shim packs around the perimeter. Take a picture of these and post. I think the original shim pack thickness is around .25 inch? If it is still near that dimension the clutches have not been adjusted. If it is way less then you may need new clutch plates? or if the clutch plates are good then removing shims can get it fully functional again. I believe the service manual covers this pretty well too. This is the shim pack:
rebuilding the 3 plate clutch (there is a very good youtube video done by Dennis, forum member, on this work too);
Dont forget about your new output seals on the PTO shaft cover. I doubled up on these as recommended by several folks on here.
Sorry this is a picture heavy post and not very organized.
Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 19 Dec 2019 at 8:19am
|
|
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
|
|
Allis Wd45
Bronze Level
Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Location: Washington
Points: 170
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Dec 2019 at 7:02pm |
|
Chris, Thanks for the Pictures I found a complete gearbox and shaft. I will wait to order gaskets and seals in case I find something else wrong because the closest AGCO dealer to me is about 3 1/2 hours away and I have them mail me the parts. Did you use the original size seal on the PTO gearbox cover when you doubled them up? I may do the same. Also I see in the parts book there are a bunch of shims for the pto gearbox cover, but I only see 1 gasket listed. Do I use that gasket or does it change depending on backlash when putting it together?
|
|
WD45
IH Cub Cadet 149,1650,1250
#2 Cart, IH#2 Tiller
|
|
Sugarmaker
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
Points: 8269
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Dec 2019 at 7:17pm |
Allis Wd45, Yes I believe I just ordered two of the output shaft seals and installed them in the same direction. On the shims for the cover: Your service manual may be better than I can tell you? Save the metal shims, the paper ones are the ones you can get to set the back lash. That may be called the gasket? See if I can find picture of that?? Guess I dont have any pictures of those/ shims and paper gaskets?
Maybe someone will jump in give us some expert advice on that too? Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 19 Dec 2019 at 7:19pm
|
|
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
|
|
Allis Wd45
Bronze Level
Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Location: Washington
Points: 170
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 Dec 2019 at 7:57pm |
|
Maybe so, again thanks for the pictures that helps a bunch being able to see what is behind things before you take it apart.
Edited by Allis Wd45 - 19 Dec 2019 at 9:11pm
|
|
WD45
IH Cub Cadet 149,1650,1250
#2 Cart, IH#2 Tiller
|
|
Allis Wd45
Bronze Level
Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Location: Washington
Points: 170
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 3:56pm |
|
I was able to get the Intermediate gear shaft into the hydraulic compartment about 1/2" and it wont go any more. The bigger part of the shaft is flush with the hole on the PTO side. Is there any tricks to get it out the rest of the way?
|
|
WD45
IH Cub Cadet 149,1650,1250
#2 Cart, IH#2 Tiller
|
|
Sugarmaker
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
Points: 8269
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 7:34pm |
Ok your testing the old brain and its not working well tonight! If I had it open on the bench I could help you. But I just have not done enough of these to have all the moves memorized. Maybe try to call Don (MO) in the morning, I bet he would be kind enough to walk you through the removal. Glad you got the parts. The rest is just figuring out the puzzle. Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 21 Dec 2019 at 9:52am
|
|
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
|
|
Alex09(WI)
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Location: CECIL WI
Points: 1699
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 9:18pm |
|
Regarding the pto gearbox, there was originally a very thin paper gasket between each shim for the output shaft bearing carrier, but the local Agco dealer told me last year the gaskets are not used anymore, I just made sure each shim was clean on both sides and an extremely thin layer (like barely visible) of silicone between each shim. You remove a shim if you have too much end play in the shaft and add a shim if you can't turn the shaft by hand easily when the bolts are tightened down. Make sure you keep checking the shaft by hand when tightening the bolts becasue if you don't have enough shims at first the bearing will be too tight when you tighten the bolts down
|
|
www.awtractor.com
A&W TRACTOR 920-598-1287
KEEPING ALLIS-CHALMERS IN THE FIELDS THROUGH THE 21ST CENTURY
|
|
smoen55
Bronze Level
Joined: 17 Dec 2019
Location: Coon Rapids MN
Points: 2
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 9:44pm |
|
Hi, I'm restoring my first AC WD. I just put the two seals that keep the fluids separated. And they were 100% shot. So if the fluids are mixing then they are both likely bad. They are opposing seals. Of course my tractor was completely apart when I installed them but it was not to difficult.
|
|
smoen55
Bronze Level
Joined: 17 Dec 2019
Location: Coon Rapids MN
Points: 2
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20 Dec 2019 at 10:03pm |
|
If you have plenty of shims left you then the plates are probably okay. If you split the tractor I would just do a touch up on the hand clutch. Take it apart, clean it up. Take the ring out by applying pressure with vise or press and rotate the plate (about an inch) that holds the clutch in because it does wear in groves as mine was. The rollers were in good shape but now holds like new. Also take out two shims to start and see how it goes. Shims can be removed anytime just by taking cover off and loosening bolts then slipping them out.
|
|
Allis Wd45
Bronze Level
Joined: 06 Nov 2017
Location: Washington
Points: 170
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2019 at 1:18am |
|
Okay, there are still 2 shims in the hand clutch all the way around so it cant be worn too badly. I will call Don tomorrow to get some more advise, I will also ask about splitting the tractor. I don't use the hydraulics at all so its not a big deal. I just don't want the pump to run out of oil.
|
|
WD45
IH Cub Cadet 149,1650,1250
#2 Cart, IH#2 Tiller
|
|
Sugarmaker
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
Points: 8269
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2019 at 10:06am |
Allis WD45, Hand clutch review: There should be many shims in each of the three packs, unless theay have all been removed due to worn out clutch linings! Each shim pack is a stack of brass shim stock maybe they are .005 each?? Stacked to .25 inches when new. And If you didnt know new shim stacks are gold plated :) so handle them with care! Regards, Chris
|
|
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
|
|
TimCNY
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Location: Upstate NY
Points: 1551
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21 Dec 2019 at 10:19am |
|
huh... Well, I bought the paper shims from Sandy Lake when I repaired the PTO gearbox on my WD45. AND used copper gasket sealer. No issues. Not that expensive at all.
|
|
I need more than 200 characters for my "signature." I'd love to see that changed to 250!
|
|
