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Diesel coolant cavitation

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Bob J Wi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob J Wi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Diesel coolant cavitation
    Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 3:34pm
What is coolant cavitation? What additive is recommended?
I never read or heard about this problem.
Thanks for any help. I have an AC 200.
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 3:37pm
If you use treated anti-freeze from Cummins or Caterpillar, you'll never have an issue. When you see wet sleeves with termite holes eaten in them from the water side, that is cavitation erosion.
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JoeM(GA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeM(GA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 4:06pm
lots on the web if you google it, but this explains it pretty good -

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/03/cavitation-erosion-in-diesel-cylinders/
Allis Express North Georgia
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FREEDGUY View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 7:17pm
Can an 190 XT ('69 diesel) be upgraded with a coolant filter ?
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Ron(AB) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron(AB) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 7:28pm
Yes.

Any tractor can have one.
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 7:37pm
Why anyone would go to the trouble and expense of mounting a filter when you can just use the CORRECT coolant is beyond me. Any coolant filter will have at least 4 possible places to leak as things get older.
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Anthony View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anthony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 7:47pm
I use fleet guard coolant in all my diesels and it comes with the additive already in it. Just flush and add and no more worries.
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FREEDGUY View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 9:00pm
I was merely asking a question Cry . Can someone (DOC) elaborate on the proper coolant in the XT, or ANY diesel engine please??
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lentsch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lentsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 10:19pm
You can get test kits and additives from auto parts stores or truck parts dealers to keep the ph level correct.
WD,D15,190XT,7000,8010x2,7060,8070
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSeries4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 10:35pm
I get antifreeze for diesel engines from NAPA.
'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 7:34am
In school many years ago the teach said that once cavitation has started it is very hard to stop because the additive can't get into the very tiny cavitations so they keep growing until you have a hole. How true, I don't know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeO(CMO) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 7:54am
I first heard of this problem a number of years ago when I purchased a 185 and replacing a water pump.
I went to the Green place to see if they had something to add and ended up buying the Cool Gard, also purchased Torq Gard for oil change.
I felt if green can get along, orange can also make it; hey, this keeps them off my back. 




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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 8:51am
It's always best to use the treated coolant from the beginning, but never too late to start using it. Those 301 diesel engines are plagued with cavitation erosion AND failing O-rings on the sleeves. I've used treated coolant since 1977 and never have had an engine go down from sleeve pits or O-ring failure, if the Customer faithfully maintained the cooling system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Kroupa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 9:56am
Lots of good info here, I've always added Donaldson DCA4 coolant additive to my diesel engines. I have just run the Low Silicate green type coolant and add the coolant additive to it and check the levels with the test strips. I also add it to the Sisu engines that do not call for anything, because of their midrib-supported sleeves. Something else to consider is using distilled water if mixing your own coolant. This would be recommended if your water test high in minerals. , Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 10:59am
Distilled water + heavy duty antifreeze + Nalcool 2000 additive is what is started with in 1977. In the last 20 years you can purchase the really good stuff already pre-mixed from Cat and Cummins and I'm sure others. The good stuff is usually a pinkish color what I am used to seeing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 8:29pm
Thanks to all posters for VERY helpful info Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WD45Diesel57 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 8:50pm
I use john Deere cool guard in my d17 diesel and 7020 suppose to be good stuff and reasonably priced too!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 9:08pm
Is it just the 301 engine or ALL ALLIS diesel engines? We also have a 433T in the F2.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 9:24pm
Any diesel engine can potentially do it. Wet sleeves are worse. 301's seem to me to be worse than 426's or 200 inch 4-bangers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 9:25pm
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john(MI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 12:45am
A friend gave me a quart of CAT additive.  Whenever I change coolant I just add the specified amount.  I don't know if it's working, but the tractor keeps running so I'm happy.
D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimWenigOH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

Why anyone would go to the trouble and expense of mounting a filter when you can just use the CORRECT coolant is beyond me. Any coolant filter will have at least 4 possible places to leak as things get older.

  Some time ago, this subject came up. From what I remember, there was a photo of a used coolant filter which had been cut open showing the particulates the filter had caught. To me that is one good reason to use the filter. I installed one on the 220 and am in the process of installing one on the XT. I'll be cutting my next used filter open for my own test results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 5:26pm
Please post your results after the autopsy Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 6:00pm
When I started my B recently for the first time in years I installed a cone shaped metal screen inside the inlet on the radiator. I was worried about crud/mouse nesting material in the block. While there was no rats nesting there was crud, and I cleaned the mesh cone out and ran the engine again with the cone in place again, and cleaned it out again. The last time there was hardly anything in the diy filter. If nothing else that junk didn’t make it into the radiator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 6:21pm
I've never even heard of this problem before, nor did I know there was a different coolant foe diesels. I've always just used the green Prestone antifreeze as used in a car. My 7740 New Holland doesn't have sleeves (so I've been told), does it make a difference?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 6:45am
Originally posted by FREEDGUY FREEDGUY wrote:

Is it just the 301 engine or ALL ALLIS diesel engines? We also have a 433T in the F2.
Any diesel as stated before, including sleeveless but IH diesels had a problem with it in their 400 series engines, the 401 Ford, The Case 504, Deere 404 all had their share of troubles with cavitation and electrolysis which is a hair bit of a different problem but treated the same. I think if you talk to most any mechanic in any brand shop they'll tell you some engines are worse than other but almost all diesels will have that same problem. The only reason why I picked out the certain engines above is because I've known and talked to mechanics that have worked on all those particular engines and they all say the same thing basically. Treated antifreeze seems the only way to beat it...... that and supposedly what Sisu had done to their engines...... Or an air cooled.

Here's a link describing how cavitation erosion works.
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/03/cavitation-erosion-in-diesel-cylinders/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pirlbeck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 8:03am
From the Baldwin farm filter guide book.

HOW DO SCAs PREVENT LINER PITTING? Cylinder liner perforation is a common cause of premature failure in unprotected engines. Liner pitting occurs as collapsing air bubbles in the coolant scour away at the unprotected outer surface of the liner. Estimates show that these imploding bubbles can generate pressures in excess of 60,000 PSI at the surface of the liner wall. If left unchecked, complete perforation of the liner is likely.

Technically, this scouring process is known as cavitation erosion. While it can appear anywhere on the cylinder liner, most pitting occurs as a narrow vertical band, perpendicular to the axis of the crankshaft. A secondary band may be found on the opposite side of the liner. The air bubbles are primarily the result of vibration of the liner wall as the piston travels up and down in the cylinder bore. Therefore, any change in the design of the engine which increases the vibration of the liner (such as thinner cylinder walls, longer sleeves or poor mechanical fit) will increase the potential for liner perforation. To combat the effect of cavitation erosion, all heavy-duty engine manufacturers recommend the use of SCAs. The SCAs coat the liner walls with a hard oxide film that acts as a barrier between the liner wall and the collapsing air bubbles, but does not significantly impede heat transfer. While the SCAs cannot prevent the formation or collapse of the bubbles, the oxide film is thick enough to keep the bubbles away from the liner surface, thus effectively preventing pitting of the liners.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 9:21am
My understanding of cavitation is that it is not from piston motion, but from the abrupt bang of diesel combustion. E.g. a very rapid combustion chamber pressure rise. If it was from piston motion it would be a problem in gas engines, especially racing engines.

Gerald J.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 6:52pm
I was under the impression that it had to do with the acidity of the coolant that "ate" away the sleeve??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 7:43pm
The damage from cavitation comes from the bang making a bubble on the outside of the sleeve and then that bubble collapsing so the sleeve is hit with coolant. Hit hard enough to remove a layer of steel atoms. Repeated each power stroke the cavitation eats all the way through the sleeve. It looks like corrosion but its not chemical corrosion.

Gerald J.
 

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