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Diesel coolant cavitation

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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=145740
Printed Date: 20 Jun 2025 at 9:54am
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Topic: Diesel coolant cavitation
Posted By: Bob J Wi
Subject: Diesel coolant cavitation
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 3:34pm
What is coolant cavitation? What additive is recommended?
I never read or heard about this problem.
Thanks for any help. I have an AC 200.



Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 3:37pm
If you use treated anti-freeze from Cummins or Caterpillar, you'll never have an issue. When you see wet sleeves with termite holes eaten in them from the water side, that is cavitation erosion.


Posted By: JoeM(GA)
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 4:06pm
lots on the web if you google it, but this explains it pretty good -

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/03/cavitation-erosion-in-diesel-cylinders/" rel="nofollow - http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/03/cavitation-erosion-in-diesel-cylinders/


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Allis Express North Georgia
41 WC,48 UC Cane,7-G's,
Ford 345C TLB


Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 7:17pm
Can an 190 XT ('69 diesel) be upgraded with a coolant filter ?


Posted By: Ron(AB)
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 7:28pm
Yes.

Any tractor can have one.


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 7:37pm
Why anyone would go to the trouble and expense of mounting a filter when you can just use the CORRECT coolant is beyond me. Any coolant filter will have at least 4 possible places to leak as things get older.


Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 7:47pm
I use fleet guard coolant in all my diesels and it comes with the additive already in it. Just flush and add and no more worries.


Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 9:00pm
I was merely asking a question Cry . Can someone (DOC) elaborate on the proper coolant in the XT, or ANY diesel engine please??


Posted By: lentsch
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 10:19pm
You can get test kits and additives from auto parts stores or truck parts dealers to keep the ph level correct.

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WD,D15,190XT,7000,8010x2,7060,8070


Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2017 at 10:35pm
I get antifreeze for diesel engines from NAPA.


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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080


Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 7:34am
In school many years ago the teach said that once cavitation has started it is very hard to stop because the additive can't get into the very tiny cavitations so they keep growing until you have a hole. How true, I don't know.

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Wink
I am a Russian Bot


Posted By: JoeO(CMO)
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 7:54am
I first heard of this problem a number of years ago when I purchased a 185 and replacing a water pump.
I went to the Green place to see if they had something to add and ended up buying the Cool Gard, also purchased Torq Gard for oil change.
I felt if green can get along, orange can also make it; hey, this keeps them off my back. 


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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 8:51am
It's always best to use the treated coolant from the beginning, but never too late to start using it. Those 301 diesel engines are plagued with cavitation erosion AND failing O-rings on the sleeves. I've used treated coolant since 1977 and never have had an engine go down from sleeve pits or O-ring failure, if the Customer faithfully maintained the cooling system.


Posted By: Mike Kroupa
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 9:56am
Lots of good info here, I've always added Donaldson DCA4 coolant additive to my diesel engines. I have just run the Low Silicate green type coolant and add the coolant additive to it and check the levels with the test strips. I also add it to the Sisu engines that do not call for anything, because of their midrib-supported sleeves. Something else to consider is using distilled water if mixing your own coolant. This would be recommended if your water test high in minerals. , Mike


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 10:59am
Distilled water + heavy duty antifreeze + Nalcool 2000 additive is what is started with in 1977. In the last 20 years you can purchase the really good stuff already pre-mixed from Cat and Cummins and I'm sure others. The good stuff is usually a pinkish color what I am used to seeing.


Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 8:29pm
Thanks to all posters for VERY helpful info Thumbs Up


Posted By: WD45Diesel57
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 8:50pm
I use john Deere cool guard in my d17 diesel and 7020 suppose to be good stuff and reasonably priced too!

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1-B's, 2-C, 2-CA's,2-WF, 1-WC,1-G, 3-WD's, 2-WD45, 1-RC, 1-D17 Diesel, 1-D14, 2-D15,1-D17 row crop,1-D19 gas and All Crop 40,60,66,72,90 and 100


Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 9:08pm
Is it just the 301 engine or ALL ALLIS diesel engines? We also have a 433T in the F2.


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 9:24pm
Any diesel engine can potentially do it. Wet sleeves are worse. 301's seem to me to be worse than 426's or 200 inch 4-bangers.


Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 9:25pm
Thanks


Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 12:45am
A friend gave me a quart of CAT additive.  Whenever I change coolant I just add the specified amount.  I don't know if it's working, but the tractor keeps running so I'm happy.


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D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446


Posted By: JimWenigOH
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

Why anyone would go to the trouble and expense of mounting a filter when you can just use the CORRECT coolant is beyond me. Any coolant filter will have at least 4 possible places to leak as things get older.

  Some time ago, this subject came up. From what I remember, there was a photo of a used coolant filter which had been cut open showing the particulates the filter had caught. To me that is one good reason to use the filter. I installed one on the 220 and am in the process of installing one on the XT. I'll be cutting my next used filter open for my own test results.


Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 5:26pm
Please post your results after the autopsy Smile


Posted By: theropod
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 6:00pm
When I started my B recently for the first time in years I installed a cone shaped metal screen inside the inlet on the radiator. I was worried about crud/mouse nesting material in the block. While there was no rats nesting there was crud, and I cleaned the mesh cone out and ran the engine again with the cone in place again, and cleaned it out again. The last time there was hardly anything in the diy filter. If nothing else that junk didn’t make it into the radiator.

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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200

No private messages:
use email:
theropod AT yahoo DOT com


Posted By: Ranse
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 6:21pm
I've never even heard of this problem before, nor did I know there was a different coolant foe diesels. I've always just used the green Prestone antifreeze as used in a car. My 7740 New Holland doesn't have sleeves (so I've been told), does it make a difference?


Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 6:45am
Originally posted by FREEDGUY FREEDGUY wrote:

Is it just the 301 engine or ALL ALLIS diesel engines? We also have a 433T in the F2.
Any diesel as stated before, including sleeveless but IH diesels had a problem with it in their 400 series engines, the 401 Ford, The Case 504, Deere 404 all had their share of troubles with cavitation and electrolysis which is a hair bit of a different problem but treated the same. I think if you talk to most any mechanic in any brand shop they'll tell you some engines are worse than other but almost all diesels will have that same problem. The only reason why I picked out the certain engines above is because I've known and talked to mechanics that have worked on all those particular engines and they all say the same thing basically. Treated antifreeze seems the only way to beat it...... that and supposedly what Sisu had done to their engines...... Or an air cooled.

Here's a link describing how cavitation erosion works.
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/03/cavitation-erosion-in-diesel-cylinders/" rel="nofollow - http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/03/cavitation-erosion-in-diesel-cylinders/


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-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink
I am a Russian Bot


Posted By: pirlbeck
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 8:03am
From the Baldwin farm filter guide book.

HOW DO SCAs PREVENT LINER PITTING? Cylinder liner perforation is a common cause of premature failure in unprotected engines. Liner pitting occurs as collapsing air bubbles in the coolant scour away at the unprotected outer surface of the liner. Estimates show that these imploding bubbles can generate pressures in excess of 60,000 PSI at the surface of the liner wall. If left unchecked, complete perforation of the liner is likely.

Technically, this scouring process is known as cavitation erosion. While it can appear anywhere on the cylinder liner, most pitting occurs as a narrow vertical band, perpendicular to the axis of the crankshaft. A secondary band may be found on the opposite side of the liner. The air bubbles are primarily the result of vibration of the liner wall as the piston travels up and down in the cylinder bore. Therefore, any change in the design of the engine which increases the vibration of the liner (such as thinner cylinder walls, longer sleeves or poor mechanical fit) will increase the potential for liner perforation. To combat the effect of cavitation erosion, all heavy-duty engine manufacturers recommend the use of SCAs. The SCAs coat the liner walls with a hard oxide film that acts as a barrier between the liner wall and the collapsing air bubbles, but does not significantly impede heat transfer. While the SCAs cannot prevent the formation or collapse of the bubbles, the oxide film is thick enough to keep the bubbles away from the liner surface, thus effectively preventing pitting of the liners.



Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 9:21am
My understanding of cavitation is that it is not from piston motion, but from the abrupt bang of diesel combustion. E.g. a very rapid combustion chamber pressure rise. If it was from piston motion it would be a problem in gas engines, especially racing engines.

Gerald J.


Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 6:52pm
I was under the impression that it had to do with the acidity of the coolant that "ate" away the sleeve??


Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 7:43pm
The damage from cavitation comes from the bang making a bubble on the outside of the sleeve and then that bubble collapsing so the sleeve is hit with coolant. Hit hard enough to remove a layer of steel atoms. Repeated each power stroke the cavitation eats all the way through the sleeve. It looks like corrosion but its not chemical corrosion.

Gerald J.
 



Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 8:59pm
Thanks Gerald. Was under the impression it was a chemical reaction, I learned something new today! Guess a person is never too old LOL!


Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 5:43am
Had the definition of electrolysis in school a long time ago but I went and looked it up just to get it right. I'll put it here in my own words...........Electrolysis is an electro-chemical reaction between different metals. Just like how some folks on the forum have cleaned rusted metal parts immersed in some form of conductive liquid and opposite some home made electrodes and using a battery charger hooked up to each metal. Leave it charged long enough it will eat away at the good metal too.

Then there is just plain oxydation which is simply corrosion.

Both of these and cavitation that a diesel is prone can kill an engine given enough time.


These are three different problems and cavitation is the biggest problem in a diesel IMO.


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-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink
I am a Russian Bot


Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 9:41am
the film I saw that Cummins put out,said the liner expanded under firing and "snapped back" in place causeing void between water and wall causeing high heat on wall surface.When water moved back to wall,it was boiled and that steam bubble would blow a hole in metal (little by little). The additive coated liner to form protective layer to offset "steam damage". It doesn't change what's going on,it just protects against damage. This is for cavitation erosion.Electrolisis is different animal.


Posted By: GM Guy
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 12:30am
Cat EC-1 equivalent is an excellent diesel coolant that is available anywhere, and many aftermarket coolant makers offer a EC-1 equivalent.


I need to find a coolant filter without the additive brick inside, as I still value the filtering ability of having a filter, but I would imagine running a regular pre-charged filter is a no-no with extended life coolant.


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Gleaner: the properly engineered and built combine.

If you need parts for your Gleaner, we are parting out A's through L2's, so we may be able to help.


Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 9:28am
I don't know for sure but I think the coolant "filter" is really a device primarily intended to keep the additive amount up and there isn't any coolant cleaning in the can.

Gerald J.


Posted By: ACjack
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Gerald J. Gerald J. wrote:

I don't know for sure but I think the coolant "filter" is really a device primarily intended to keep the additive amount up and there isn't any coolant cleaning in the can.

Gerald J.
Clap  This is what I was told back in 1969 when working on the late stock/repair floor when I was given the task of installing these "coolant filters" on a couple of dozen 11,000 series engines before they were shipped.


Posted By: pirlbeck
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 9:59am
Originally posted by Gerald J. Gerald J. wrote:

I don't know for sure but I think the coolant "filter" is really a device primarily intended to keep the additive amount up and there isn't any coolant cleaning in the can.

Gerald J.

They do indeed have filter media in them and they do filter the coolant. When IH came out with the coolant filter kits we installed a lot of them on older tractors. We had several that after several days the the filter quit warming up when the engine was run. We cut the filter apart and it was completely plugged with the brown sludge that you typically see at the bottom of the block when you pull a wet cylinder liner out.


Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 7:52pm

Picked this up at Rural King. Has the additive in it.

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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD


Posted By: Bob J Wi
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 8:34am
Bump


Posted By: theropod
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 11:06am
I have an EL-300 Kubota single cylinder diesel engine that makes about 4.25 HP on a good day. We use it to drive a large frame alternator to recharge our battery bank when the sun doesn’t shine and wind doesn’t blow. It runs at about 1,650 RPM. Is my little engine at risk from this effect? It is a wet sleeve engine, with a little over 10,000 hours and runs like a champ.

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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200

No private messages:
use email:
theropod AT yahoo DOT com


Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 11:48am
That little Kubota probably don't have enough bang to swell liner on power stroke but I would follow Kubota's direction on your coolant.HD coolant can't hurt it though. 10,000hrs is a lot so you're probably ok either way.


Posted By: theropod
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by SteveM C/IL SteveM C/IL wrote:

That little Kubota probably don't have enough bang to swell liner on power stroke but I would follow Kubota's direction on your coolant.HD coolant can't hurt it though. 10,000hrs is a lot so you're probably ok either way.

My owners manual and shop service manual don’t mention anything about special coolant/antifreeze. Owned the engine since new over 17 years ago. Never been seriously hot. Changed oil like clockwork. Kept the valves adjusted. Take the injector out/apart ever so often and soak in lacquer thinner. Take the radiator off once a year and pressure wash the thing and the sleeve looks pretty clean. A really sweet engine that the EPA has banned.


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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200

No private messages:
use email:
theropod AT yahoo DOT com


Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 7:28pm
that right there tells you how smart the GOV is


Posted By: Bob J Wi
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2018 at 9:29am
Bump


Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2018 at 11:57am
Coolant filters are a good idea to add to your 6.0/6.4 powerstroke. On the 6.0 mostly to catch the debris that will clog the oil cooler. Using a precharged filter is a no no as that will clog the cooler too. 6.4 has problems with cavitation on the front cover right behind the water pump. When the Ziegler Cat people were running 6.0s they switched them all to Cat EC1 and then I did far fewer oil and EGR coolers on them.

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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford


Posted By: Pete from IL
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2018 at 12:17pm
Baldwin does offer some coolant filters without any coolant treatment in them. Don't know about all applications though.


Posted By: Bob J Wi
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 8:44am
I just found Peak "Final Charge Coolant " at
Menards for $11.49 per gallon. Label says it meets
many manufacturers including Cat EC-1 and Cummins.
Should be under $60 for a refill.
Thanks for the information..


Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 6:50pm
You didn't fall for the "PREMIXED" anti freeze, DID YOU??


Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 8:37pm
Bob, did you mean Fleet Charge? Does it look like what I put in my post above? If so, its full strength not a 50/50 mix.

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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD


Posted By: Bob J Wi
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 8:26am
Thanks I am trying not to buy water.


Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 11:07am
There is a difference in pre mixed vs full strength other than one is ready to use and the other requires mixing. Premixed uses de ionized water. Probably not as big of a concern in the diesel world unless there are electronics being cooled as well.

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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford



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