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Diesel coolant cavitation |
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Bob J Wi ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 25 Mar 2011 Location: Wisconsin Points: 270 |
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What is coolant cavitation? What additive is recommended?
I never read or heard about this problem. Thanks for any help. I have an AC 200.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21359 |
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If you use treated anti-freeze from Cummins or Caterpillar, you'll never have an issue. When you see wet sleeves with termite holes eaten in them from the water side, that is cavitation erosion.
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JoeM(GA) ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Cumming,GA Points: 4754 |
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lots on the web if you google it, but this explains it pretty good -
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/03/cavitation-erosion-in-diesel-cylinders/ |
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Allis Express North Georgia
41 WC,48 UC Cane,7-G's, Ford 345C TLB |
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FREEDGUY ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |
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Can an 190 XT ('69 diesel) be upgraded with a coolant filter ?
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Ron(AB) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 27 Dec 2009 Location: Alberta Points: 959 |
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Yes.
Any tractor can have one. |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21359 |
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Why anyone would go to the trouble and expense of mounting a filter when you can just use the CORRECT coolant is beyond me. Any coolant filter will have at least 4 possible places to leak as things get older.
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Anthony ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Alva, Oklahoma Points: 731 |
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I use fleet guard coolant in all my diesels and it comes with the additive already in it. Just flush and add and no more worries.
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FREEDGUY ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |
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I was merely asking a question
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lentsch ![]() Silver Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 Feb 2011 Location: Glencoe,Mn. Points: 228 |
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You can get test kits and additives from auto parts stores or truck parts dealers to keep the ph level correct.
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WD,D15,190XT,7000,8010x2,7060,8070
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DSeries4 ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Ontario, Canada Points: 7433 |
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I get antifreeze for diesel engines from NAPA.
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Lonn ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29792 |
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In school many years ago the teach said that once cavitation has started it is very hard to stop because the additive can't get into the very tiny cavitations so they keep growing until you have a hole. How true, I don't know.
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Wink I am a Russian Bot |
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JoeO(CMO) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Cent Missouri Points: 2694 |
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I first heard of this problem a number of years ago when I purchased a 185 and replacing a water pump.
I went to the Green place to see if they had something to add and ended up buying the Cool Gard, also purchased Torq Gard for oil change. I felt if green can get along, orange can also make it; hey, this keeps them off my back.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21359 |
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It's always best to use the treated coolant from the beginning, but never too late to start using it. Those 301 diesel engines are plagued with cavitation erosion AND failing O-rings on the sleeves. I've used treated coolant since 1977 and never have had an engine go down from sleeve pits or O-ring failure, if the Customer faithfully maintained the cooling system.
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Mike Kroupa ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 02 Oct 2009 Location: pierce, ne Points: 335 |
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Lots of good info here, I've always added Donaldson DCA4 coolant additive to my diesel engines. I have just run the Low Silicate green type coolant and add the coolant additive to it and check the levels with the test strips. I also add it to the Sisu engines that do not call for anything, because of their midrib-supported sleeves. Something else to consider is using distilled water if mixing your own coolant. This would be recommended if your water test high in minerals. , Mike
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21359 |
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Distilled water + heavy duty antifreeze + Nalcool 2000 additive is what is started with in 1977. In the last 20 years you can purchase the really good stuff already pre-mixed from Cat and Cummins and I'm sure others. The good stuff is usually a pinkish color what I am used to seeing.
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FREEDGUY ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |
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Thanks to all posters for VERY helpful info
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WD45Diesel57 ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 Jul 2010 Location: Varna, Ont. Can Points: 646 |
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I use john Deere cool guard in my d17 diesel and 7020 suppose to be good stuff and reasonably priced too!
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1-B's, 2-C, 2-CA's,2-WF, 1-WC,1-G, 3-WD's, 2-WD45, 1-RC, 1-D17 Diesel, 1-D14, 2-D15,1-D17 row crop,1-D19 gas and All Crop 40,60,66,72,90 and 100
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FREEDGUY ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |
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Is it just the 301 engine or ALL ALLIS diesel engines? We also have a 433T in the F2.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21359 |
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Any diesel engine can potentially do it. Wet sleeves are worse. 301's seem to me to be worse than 426's or 200 inch 4-bangers.
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FREEDGUY ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |
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Thanks
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john(MI) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: SE MI Points: 9262 |
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A friend gave me a quart of CAT additive. Whenever I change coolant I just add the specified amount. I don't know if it's working, but the tractor keeps running so I'm happy.
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D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
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JimWenigOH ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: NC Ohio Points: 1164 |
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Some time ago, this subject came up. From what I remember, there was a photo of a used coolant filter which had been cut open showing the particulates the filter had caught. To me that is one good reason to use the filter. I installed one on the 220 and am in the process of installing one on the XT. I'll be cutting my next used filter open for my own test results.
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FREEDGUY ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |
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Please post your results after the autopsy
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theropod ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 2017 Location: Arkansas USA Points: 217 |
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When I started my B recently for the first time in years I installed a cone shaped metal screen inside the inlet on the radiator. I was worried about crud/mouse nesting material in the block. While there was no rats nesting there was crud, and I cleaned the mesh cone out and ran the engine again with the cone in place again, and cleaned it out again. The last time there was hardly anything in the diy filter. If nothing else that junk didn’t make it into the radiator.
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Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200 No private messages: use email: theropod AT yahoo DOT com |
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Ranse ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Mar 2016 Location: Tennessee Points: 775 |
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I've never even heard of this problem before, nor did I know there was a different coolant foe diesels. I've always just used the green Prestone antifreeze as used in a car. My 7740 New Holland doesn't have sleeves (so I've been told), does it make a difference?
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Lonn ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29792 |
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Here's a link describing how cavitation erosion works. http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/03/cavitation-erosion-in-diesel-cylinders/ |
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-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink I am a Russian Bot |
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pirlbeck ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 01 Dec 2009 Location: West Central IA Points: 226 |
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From the Baldwin farm filter guide book.
Technically, this scouring process is known as cavitation erosion. While it can appear anywhere on the cylinder liner, most pitting occurs as a narrow vertical band, perpendicular to the axis of the crankshaft. A secondary band may be found on the opposite side of the liner. The air bubbles are primarily the result of vibration of the liner wall as the piston travels up and down in the cylinder bore. Therefore, any change in the design of the engine which increases the vibration of the liner (such as thinner cylinder walls, longer sleeves or poor mechanical fit) will increase the potential for liner perforation. To combat the effect of cavitation erosion, all heavy-duty engine manufacturers recommend the use of SCAs. The SCAs coat the liner walls with a hard oxide film that acts as a barrier between the liner wall and the collapsing air bubbles, but does not significantly impede heat transfer. While the SCAs cannot prevent the formation or collapse of the bubbles, the oxide film is thick enough to keep the bubbles away from the liner surface, thus effectively preventing pitting of the liners. |
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Gerald J. ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636 |
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My understanding of cavitation is that it is not from piston motion, but from the abrupt bang of diesel combustion. E.g. a very rapid combustion chamber pressure rise. If it was from piston motion it would be a problem in gas engines, especially racing engines.
Gerald J. |
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FREEDGUY ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |
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I was under the impression that it had to do with the acidity of the coolant that "ate" away the sleeve??
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Gerald J. ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636 |
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The damage from cavitation comes from the bang making a bubble on the outside of the sleeve and then that bubble collapsing so the sleeve is hit with coolant. Hit hard enough to remove a layer of steel atoms. Repeated each power stroke the cavitation eats all the way through the sleeve. It looks like corrosion but its not chemical corrosion.
Gerald J. |
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