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smitty78 
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Location: Okla
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 Topic: Allis 200 Tractor Pump Timing Issue
Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 10:31pm |
My ole 200 tractor continues to bring gray hair ... seeking opinion. Removed pump and injectors for overhaul after turning engine till marks in pump window aligned and timing mark on gear cover was at about 20 deg BTDC. Did not turn engine while waiting for rebuilder. Did remove the pump drive gear cover plate but 90% sure I did not disengage those teeth from idler gear teeth. Reinstalled pump and injectors, bled lines, started tractor, and it sounded pretty good, but white smoke. As I waited for it to warm up, diesel started leaking from the exhaust manifold so I shut it down knowing unburnt fuel was present.
So what have I done ? Messed up timing ? Injector issue ?
Please refer pics for clues ...
The idler gear has a timing dot but the pump drive gear doesn't have a dot that I can see, but does have a helical shaped mark around the rear face. Is this a timing mark ? Service manual shows a dot aligned on both gears when timed correctly.
With the pump timing marks aligned and the pointer on 18 BTDC per service manual, the dot and helical don't align.
Also, it doesn't look to me like the injectors are seating properly even though I verified no crush washers left behind and new ones on each injector. Are they supposed to sit this high ? (I removed foam dust seal for the photo)
With the roosa marks aligned and on 18 BTDC the idler gear dot is out of position.
I never had the drive gear off the shaft but perhaps inadvertently slipped some teeth. So, any ideas on how I can get this back into time would be appreciated.
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SteveM C/IL
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
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Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 10:55pm |
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if the pump times at 18deg and that pointer is there and the pump marks are lined up,it should be in time no mater what the dot says. Always check timing marks vs deg pointer after turning engine by hand in direction of rotation to eliminate any gear backlash. That helical is a machining mark from a sloppy operator. Can't explain the raw fuel. With pump and injector rebuild,that should not happen.
Edited by SteveM C/IL - 08 Jul 2019 at 11:03pm
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smitty78
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Location: Okla
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Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 11:25pm |
Thanks, I do turn it by hand the direction of rotation. Since it ran pretty smooth, as if the timing was close, I wondered if some of the injectors weren't seated so they were just squirting fuel from the wrong position, therefore incomplete combustion. They were torqued to spec. Per the photo, I can't see anything down there that would be preventing them from seating properly, and the new crush washer is crushed, but they just don't feel right so will check again.
Also, 90% sure the outer shiv on the harmonic balancer hasn't slipped in the rubber which would put the timing marks out of position. Haven't found the alignment marks on the dampner with a mirror but still looking to verify.
With injector # 1 out, and the dampner timing mark on top dead center, the piston is up, but valve cover not removed to verify valve position. Is it possible the pump is out such that it is injecting at top of exhaust stroke ? Don't see how it could run that way but that would push plenty of diesel out the exhaust manifold. Also I'm confident the drive shaft dot was aligned correctly when stabbing the pump onto it. Ugh I hate puzzles.
Edited by smitty78 - 09 Jul 2019 at 6:14am
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MACK
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Posted: 09 Jul 2019 at 6:53am |
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I would pull injectors and have them rechecked. Sounds like one is stuck open or end blew off. MACK
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injpumpEd
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Posted: 09 Jul 2019 at 8:21am |
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11GR times to 24*. Your rebuilder should be able to offer some guidance.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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smitty78
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Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 8:19pm |
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What does "11GR" refer to ?
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DrAllis
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Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 8:26pm |
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DBGFC 637 11GR...….every digit/letter means something. 11GR describes what type of timing advance that is built into the pump. The static pump timing differs with the type of automatic advance. Some model 200 tractors are timed at 24 degrees BTDC and some are timed at 18 degrees BTDC. IF FOR SOME REASON THE ADVANCE HAS BEEN ALTERED BY A PUMP REPAIR SHOP, THEY ARE TO REMARK THIS INFO SO THE PUMP GETS STATIC TIMED PROPERLY. Timing an 18 degree pump at 24 degrees will eventually burn piston bowls.
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tbran
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Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 10:18pm |
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Remove #1 injector line at the pump. Look in banjo bolt hole for presence of the discharge hole. The hole will just be present on the edge of the bolt hole when it is about to fire the injector . Think of this as the same as a rotor button on a distributor. locate this hole and then check your timing to see if it is 'close'. A sluggish engine that has white smoke and fuel out the exhaust usually means severely retarded timing - or one that is 180 degree out - yup they will that way but usually hard starting and ruff running.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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smitty78
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Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 10:32pm |
I saw a service bulletin but it didn't expressly include the 11GR and I didn't know which listed version was applicable. But I will ask the repair shop.
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injpumpEd
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Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 9:31am |
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The 11GR was first, then came the 3JN with same 5* advance. Then AC wanted to go to the 8* advance so the engine could be timed down to 18* instead of 24 for easier starting. The 7JN and 10JN are essentially the same, just the position of the line in the window is altered.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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tbran
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Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 9:44am |
Ed, on some of the 185/200 with good batteries , starter , cables etc, the last run of pumps that were designed to crank better, had a fubar. The cranking speed was improved, then when fuel was injected it almost would crank at a high cranking speed but the auto advance kicked in full at cranking speed thus killing the advantage of the retarded timing. AC had us buy that timing tool that fit on the window and had the peg that fit in the cam ring groove that gave the exact advance movement - then had us turn in the trimmer screw so as not to advance until about 900 rpm best I can remember. We had several units that this cured the hard starting.. Timing advancement at cranking speed (transfer pump psi) will make any roosa hard to start. As a rule of thumb if the factory seal is broke on the bottom timing advance trimmer screw, some one probably has tried to turn more fuel to the unit not knowing what they were doing.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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smitty78
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Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 11:38pm |
Allis 200 now set at 24 deg, started easily but still have 1 injector streaming fuel I guess because white smoke exhaust and fuel running out of exhaust. Loosened the exhaust manifold and determined it to be cylinder 3 or 4 so I'll pull them and see what the heck.
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JayIN
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Posted: 28 Jul 2019 at 6:24am |
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Not to be a busybody, but a cold (wet) cylinder can be easily detected by pointing a infrared laser heat gun on the exhaust manifold while running
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No need to loosen anything...
Has turned out to be one of my most valuable tools. The dead cyl is quickly detected
About $23 at Auto Zone or Harbor Freight.
Edited by JayIN - 28 Jul 2019 at 6:25am
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sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?"
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smitty78
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Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 5:52pm |
Thanks JayIN, I think I have one of those, I'll look for it. Now time to admit I'm a fool ...
Took the injectors from the wet exhaust manifold, sent them back to the shop that repaired them, then sat back rehearsing my speech on how they should pay attention to their work. They were returned with a note saying injectors were fine, just plugged up with anti seize. Oops ... once I had an injector connection gall so I like a bit of anti-seize on the connection. Since I wasn't paying attention I let it get into the tube and plugged newly rebuild injectors ... foolish but that's me. Still have some white smoke but no moisture in the exhaust path so hoping any other plugged injectors will clean up with fuel additive and time. If not, I'll take them back to the shop, tail between my legs.
Now however, I have one more question for the experts. Power steering is intermittent (hard to turn) and the hydraulic pto, when driving a brush hog, stops in medium heavy weeds. Is this likely a flow or pressure problem ? (System is full of clean fluid, new filter, and rebuild pto valve.
Thanks for any advice.
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Trinity45
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Posted: 03 Oct 2019 at 11:08am |
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I can just add this, my 185 was missing, sound bad, took the pump off sent it off for rebuild, reinstalled, sounded great until I bumped the throttle up above 2000 rpm and she started sounding bad just like before, the old man who rebuilt my pump said man I am sorry I should have had you check the roll pin. If you take the front plate of of the 185 the gear is on a tapered shaft going to the pump and has a slot with a roll pin in it, the pin had sheared allowing it to slip the timing. Replaced the roll pin with a new one for .25 cents and she has been great ever since.
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smitty78
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Posted: 08 Oct 2019 at 10:45pm |
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Can anyone guess why the hydraulic driven pto "slips" when driving a brush hog in light to medium weeds ?
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Clay
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Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 1:00pm |
Could be a bad o-ring. Had this happen to a 180 tractor. We bought a new Vermeer hay baler. The pto would stall. The Vermeer dealer was there and checked over the baler. Nothing could be found wrong with the baler. Hooked up another tractor to the baler and it worked properly. Took the tractor to the Allis dealer and put it on a dyno. The problem turned out to be a bad o-ring. This was thirty years ago. They changed the o-ring and the PTO is still running strong.
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AC720Man
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Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 8:26pm |
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May be a hydraulic pump issue. My 190XT had notchy steering, especially if below 1,200 rpm, rear end would slip and then grab if I locked either brake in a tight turn(like when you plant corn with a 3point planter to go the opposite direction). Not sure my hydraulic pto ever slipped because it ran a square baler fine. Anyway, sent my hydraulic pump to SLI and they rebuilt it. It had a lot of wear in it and required a complete rebuild. Resolved all my issues after I installed it.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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