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D17 Live Hydraulics project

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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 1:32am
Hi All!

I'm starting the live-hydraulics installation project for my D17 Series 1.

I've got an aftermarket kit which contains, amongst other things, a shaft and coupler.  The coupler is a flat disk with four holes, and a keyed hub welded on, and a 3/4" keyed shaft long enough to reach from said coupler to the front of the bolster casting.

When I initially looked at the crankshaft sheave, I saw threaded bosses to connect to a puller or pump coupler, but what I didn't realize, is that there was only two threaded holes, not four... and there's an overrunning rampset for using a hand-crank.

SO... obviously there's a different front sheave available that has four bosses, and perhaps has a flat surface (rather than overrunning ramps) onto which a front pump shaft coupler can mount.

Is there a common technique for coupling to my existing sheave, or would I be best to seek a NOS supply of the latter 4-bolt sheave?  If so, who would have a good example... and finally...

It appears that removing said sheave requires removing the whole front end bolster... unhooking steering shaft, jacking up the engine/frame side, and supporting the axle, unbolting and sliding it forward... can this be done with the power-steering lines connected (just move it a little), or will I have to pull it far out to get the current sheave off the crankshaft?

Are there any BETTER ways of making this all happen?  Anybody got pictures?
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Brian Jasper co. Ia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 6:50am
I'm going to say no. You'll need a gear puller to remove the frony pulley. No question about that on the diesel. Your bolster will have to come down.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B26240 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 7:03am
I put one on a WC years ago and I used lathe , machined of the ramps, cut a very small grove at the right radius of holes then drilled and taped bolt holes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farmtoybuilder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 7:40am
You can use 2 holes to attach plate to pulley. The other two attach the shaft hub to disc.  Like the AC-Simpicity garden tractor drive shafts are! And other old loader tractors  use 4 bolt hubs-disc and used two in pulley's and other 2 for drive shaft. I don't have a picture of them. They use Heavy flat washers next to disc and spacers if needed and last a long time.  

Edited by farmtoybuilder - 20 Apr 2011 at 7:41am
5 different TT-10's,5 TT-18's Terra Tigers,B-10,2 B-207's,B-110,2 B-112's,HB-112,B-210,B-212,HB212,2 Scamp's & Homilite T-10. Still hunting NICE HB-112 & anything Terra Tiger & Trailers for them.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E7018 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 8:04am
Dave, I could probably pull the pulley off the engine that ran that that setup. A guy was going to buy the engine but hasn't showed up. ( The second guy that said that.) The front casting will have to come away to have room to change the pulley. ( 4 frame bolts and power steering lines, radiator, of course.) If you take that away, maybe it isn't any harder to make a different coupling to hook to the present pulley.
You see what looks easiest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 9:48am
Hmmm... Thanks 7018..., that'd be a helpful option. Can 'ya snap a picture of it so I can compare it to the pulley I've got?  If it comes down to pulling it off, that'd probably be the wisest move.

Toy-  the 2-pin 'rag joint' coupling is also used in the IH Cub Cadet tractor, so I'm very familiar with those, as well as the contorted rag-joint used on automotive steering systems.  Going with just two bolts wouldn't bother me, with exception that my pump will be huffin' out 21gpm at 1800, and the applied torque would definately snap the bolts out unless the coupler was flush against the holes and clamped down tight... keeping the bolts strictly in shear.  My better move, if I were to do such thing with this sheave, would be to pull it out, chuck it in the lathe, cut off the ramps, and turn a coupler that 'fills' the cavity tight enough so two bolts slipping through would hold it in a position where they wouldn't be subject to any bending moments.

And after looking at all the other variations of front drives, I've decided that if I were an aftermarket engineer in 1959, the best overall way to couple a pump to that sheave, would be to make a coupler that one could slip into the sheave without pulling radiator, shroud, etc., then thread fasteners through and tighten to EITHER sheave with a socket... and then use a splined shaft that would slide in from the front of the tractor, with a pump bracket that slides onto a pair of 1/2" studs in the front casting, with a splined-input pump that slips into the shaft... four fasteners in the whole kit, no need for keyways, set screws, U-joints, rag joints...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 11:52am
Update ! 

I got the frontend stripped of tin and radiator, and spent three days alternately hosing it down with degreaser, soaking, and then pressure-washing and scraping, and I found the engine, power steering plumbing, bolster fasteners 'n stuff, then I swept Ann's garage  floor and found concrete again (yes, I pressure-washed in the driveway, but some fell off in the garage).

7018 was quick to pull off a 4-bolt sheave that he (still) had on his engine, and handed it off to a family member who was going to Ames.

My buddy Marshall lives not far away, and was passing through Ames this morning, grabbed the sheave, and carried it to my in-laws house (just NW of DesMoines) and set it on their porch, and they'll be putting it in the car and bringing it to me on Saturday morning (for Easter).

By the time the sheave arrives, I'll have the bolster pulled, the old sheave out, and ready for the new one, and my sheave will go back to 7018 using a similarly bizzare path of late '50's ND football plays.  Go for the Gipper!

I've been doin' some hard thinking about how the coupling setups work... and seein' how I have the facilities to do so, I'm gonna modify how this one works.

I like machines that are simple, tough, and don't like to wear out.  I also like machines that are really easy to work on, require minimum of tools and heartache to get apart and together, and use pretty generic stuff so replacement parts are really easy to find or make.

So I'll start by posting pix of what I'm starting with here (skipped removing tin and radiator, flushing engine and degreasing), so follow along... this is gonna be fun!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 3:21pm
Here's what it looks like right now...


The shaft sitting on top is from an aftermarket kit that uses a 3/4" keyed shaft to a 4-bolt coupler, and the other end goes to a U-joint connected to a pump on a big bracket.

There's plenty of room to work and think here... and I think I have a really slick solution.  I gotta get this front pulley out, and once it's out, slide in the 4-bolt coupler pulley, but once this one is out, I'm gonna take some measurements, and see if there's a slick way to make a coupling that'll work with a stock 2-bolt setup, in such a way that we don't hafta disassemble anything or fish any crazy tools in there to slip the whole kit in.



Edited by DaveKamp - 22 Apr 2011 at 3:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 3:24pm

Yes, the shaft is sitting in there backwards.  I had it slid in there to get a rough idea of about how far the reach of this other 'kit' was.  Hole for the crank is about 1.1", which will be somewhat important later... but not right now.


Edited by DaveKamp - 22 Apr 2011 at 3:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 6:56pm
That has to be an old D17   ....I've never seen one with a hand crank type pulley.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 7:17pm
Yep- it's a Series 1...  Haven't checked the serial number, but I think it was about 3 months into production or so.  I'll look later and post it.

Because of it's condition, and vintage, I'm trying to keep every alteration as reversible as possible.

Which leads me to another question-  the stock hydraulic fluid storehouse is in the transmission case...  what's the fluid capacity in there?  And also-  the belt-pulley cover holds in hydraulic fluid... if I remove it, is there a good 'view' down to the bottom where I could put a pickup tube (without drilling and tapping a hole in the bottom of the casting?)



Edited by DaveKamp - 22 Apr 2011 at 7:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote junkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 7:21pm
My 59 D17 D had one on it. would of hated to use it. never did find where the crank was supposed to hide.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E7018 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 7:37pm
There is room to get the pulley out without moving the front casting forward?

Someone put a picture of one of those pulleys on here after you got that first batch of stuff from me. I didn't know there were different pulleys. I figured they all had threaded holes in them.

The only hiccup in getting the pulley to you was my daughter's cell phone battery was dead last night. She looked at it the middle of the morning today.

The pulley that is coming your way has provision for hand crank. And the threaded holes.


Edited by E7018 - 22 Apr 2011 at 7:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 7:42pm
Junkman, On the wall in the corn crib. LOL
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote junkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 7:44pm
My book says it holds 2 gal. I have heard of people tapping into it without to much trouble.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 8:00pm
E7018-  No hiccup- Marshall got it done- it's in my in-laws' car, will be arriving about 2 hours before dinner tomorrow.

No way to get it out of there without pulling the bolster-  not enough clearance for a puller, and tryin' to lever it out will just bust it up.  Whatever I come up with for an improved design, however, will be able to work with either sheave... and able to be installed without taking ANYTHING apart...  Dunno how, but I'll think of something.

I'll have it all apart and ready when it arrives, buddy will help me get it pushed in, and back together, the one comin' out will be in the box heading your way on Sunday afternoon, and we'll get it figured out from there, thanks!!!!

Charlie-  Hee hee... yeah, always check the corn-crib wall.  When we bought our place, I found all kinds'a stuff there...

Hmmm... 2 gallons...  good fluid-power engineering practice is to have one gallon of reservoir for every gallon-per-minute of hydraulic flow.  That not only assures that you have enough fluid to operate implements, it means you'll have enough expansion room for fluid AND... that your fluid turnover rate will be no faster than once a minute... so it'll have time to cool and shed bubbles on the way.

On the low-volume/high pressure lift system, 2 gallons would've been more'n sufficient... but I"m gonna fit a pump that'll swing about 18gpm at full throttle, and be an easy 4-5gpm at idle... guess I'd better find more space... don't think I wanna have any less than 8 gallons on hand, be better to have 10-15 and a good return filter...  Any other 'space' in there that I could use?


Edited by DaveKamp - 22 Apr 2011 at 8:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 8:21pm
18 GPM is too big......a 6 to 8 GPM pump at 2000 rpm would be more than enough for what you're trying to do. All an 18 gpm pumnp will do is eat up HP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 8:55pm
I'm gonna be running a few things that'll require about 12gpm, and I'd like to do it at about 1200rpm.   I'll be running an unloader valve first in line on the stack so parasitic drag will be pretty low.

And if you're curious what...  it'll be a concrete demolition hammer on the backhoe attachment, as well as a hydraulic firewood processing machine (uses a hydraulically-driven saw, splitter, and log-handling system)... and a 50" side-boom ditch mower... and a hydraulically driven snowblower...  kinda volume-hungry machines.


Edited by DaveKamp - 22 Apr 2011 at 9:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E7018 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 7:04am
"I like machines that are simple, tough, and don't like to wear out.  I also like machines that are really easy to work on, require minimum of tools and heartache to get apart and together, and use pretty generic stuff so replacement parts are really easy to find or make."

I have watched Jon Kinzenbau for many years, that is pretty well how he got rich. If his designers put in a $600 piece, he will tell them to find something for $30 to do the same job.

I put a 30 gpm pump in my D17. (The double section pump with 28 and 32 gpm looked a bit excessive.  The early days of ebay.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 8:35am
Hee hee... my cousin Tad works for Jon... Mom's family farm is just north of Marengo...  They may 'borrow' an expensive piece to prototype something, then do just what 'ya said- find something 'easier'.  They've been known to 'borrow' parts off of other machines to test the protos, then they get put on-task to find a suitable replacement (and put the other thing back together).  BTW... it's spelled "Kinzenbaw". 

I remember riding with Grandpa up to his Ladora shop to get something busted fixed.  Funny thing is, Grandpa had a perfectly good welder and outlet sitting in his machine shed... he was deathly afraid of electricity, and my uncle didn't want to learn.  Turn the calendar ahead about 15 years, Grandpa gives me the old Lincoln, I took it home, hooked it up, grabbed leathers, shield, and gloves, and started making a metal-mess.  Fast forward another 20, and I'm pretty handy with hot-glue... and my cousin's designing the next big blue implement.  Kinda cool how things work out.

Another note about the pump size... 20gpm IS quite a bit of hog for most guys... but I'm thinkin' ahead.  I'm using a 7/8-13 spline on an SAE B interface... that's pretty common, and making an SAE A bracket means just a smaller pilot hole.  With splines, I'll get two benefits-  First, there's enough slop in a double-ended splined shaft of this length to not need a 'soft' coupling.  I'll 'float' mount the pump to take up any deflection.  Second, they come apart much easier than a keyed, pinned, or set-screw shaft.  It'll only take disconnecting two hoses and two bolts to get the pump out, probably 5 minutes total. 

By doing this, if I feel the drag of the pump is too high, I can swap the pump with a smaller one, or even just pull out the shaft and run the pump without.  I'll also leave enough slack in the lines so the pumpshaft can be pulled without unhooking hoses... and if I can, I'll make the suction tube so that it has to siphon draw a short distance, rather than run full gravity, so that I can unhook a line and lift it a few inches to stop flow.   I hate having hydraulic fluid drip all over my shoes and floor... and it's expensive stuff to be losing.


Edited by DaveKamp - 23 Apr 2011 at 8:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian G.  NY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 9:30am
Dave,
 
I like to improvise.
It looks to me like you might be able to make a puller for your situation by running a long threaded rod thru the crank hole, install a couple of heavy washers and a nut on the front side of the bolster. I also like to use a kingpin thrust bearing to reduce friction.
'course you still gotta figure a way to "latch on" to the pulley in a way that won't take up too much space.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatz in NE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 9:44am
...the crank ramps are going the wrong direction to DRIVE a shaft; 
consider the function of them
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian G.  NY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 9:45am
Maybe something like this?  I would use wide rather than thick material to save space.
Just a thought. I'd like to have a nickel for every homemade puller I've built over the years. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian G.  NY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 10:00am
After looking at your pictures for a second time, it looks like there might not be enuf room to pull the pulley as I suggested. However, if there is enuf space to get it started, you might be able to pry it off the rest of the way.
That's if there is sufficient space to even move the pully forward enuf to clear the shaft.
Sounds like you're the type of guy that will figure out something.
We're all rootin' for ya.
I intend to install a front mounted pump on my D-17 but mine is a Series II and has the pulley with the threaded holes so I've got one less hurdle to jump than you.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve M C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 12:28pm
Them pullys are not interferance fit.Favorite penatrate & air hammer.Remove setscrew first of course.Dad used a crowbar and a BFH back in the day.No keyway either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 2:02pm
Gatz-  Yes, they're goin' the wrong way... did someone suggest driving off the ramps?

Brian-  pulling it isn't a problem, but there's only about 5/8" clearance between end of the flange and the back end of the bolster... and there's well over an inch-and-a-half of purchase on the pulley flange, so no matter how you look at it, either the bolster needs to come out, or the engine needs to come out, in order to get that sheave out.

The 4-bolt just arrived in the in-law's car, and the bolster bolts are tight enough to bend a stout box-end wrench, so this is gonna be a challenge to my post-op body.  Both the original, and the new pulley are keyway type... and if I remember correctly, my '48 and '39 B and '37 WD are both keyway.


Edited by DaveKamp - 23 Apr 2011 at 2:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobHnwO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 3:39pm
Don't think anyone has addressed pump rotation,looking at the front of the pump I assume you need  a pump with CW rotation?
Why do today what you can put off til tomorrow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 4:31pm
Hi Bob!    With the pump facing the engine, and the pulley rotation of the engine turning CW, the pump needs to be CCW.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 4:36pm
Okay, it took an awesome breaker-bar setup, but I got the front bolster bolts broke loose, and it's sitting on some splitting stands with the front wheels just barely off the floor.  I have a 'track' for the axle yoke to lay on, while I slide the whole works forward far enough to swap the pulleys.

Now, I need to disconnect the steering shaft.  It LOOKS like, to me, that the easiest way to do it on the D17, would be to disconnect it at the joint back on the engine bellhousing.  Question is, though... is the pin that holds the yoke in intended to be sacrificial?  It looks mushroomed on both sides, so before I start beating on it, or grinding it, I'll check with someone who's done this before...

Next... the pivot pin on the axle stabilizer yoke... back under the flywheel... what's the most sensible way to unhook that?  I see several bolts, as well as the pivot pin, and don't really see an obvious method for taking that apart in a minimalistic way.

Finally, the power steering lines... which ones, and disconnect where, in order to make the least mess?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by DaveKamp DaveKamp wrote:

Oka
Now, I need to disconnect the steering shaft.  It LOOKS like, to me, that the easiest way to do it on the D17, would be to disconnect it at the joint back on the engine bellhousing.  Question is, though... is the pin that holds the yoke in intended to be sacrificial?  It looks mushroomed on both sides, so before I start beating on it, or grinding it, I'll check with someone who's done this before...
 
I have heard people say the pins are tapered, they are not, at least on the WC and WD. It's a straight nominal size pin with both ends mushroomed into a chamfer. I intended to put roll pins back in the WC but my hired help left the crusty old bolts I stuck in to move it around the shop. Add that to the things to do list.
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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