| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Mrgoodwrench 
Orange Level
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Location: CHICORA PA
Points: 2081
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Posted: 23 Feb 2013 at 7:33am |
|
why is everyone just quoting themselves?
|
|
There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!!
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
Mrgoodwrench
Orange Level
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Location: CHICORA PA
Points: 2081
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Feb 2013 at 7:34am |
 Mrgoodwrench wrote:
why is everyone just quoting themselves? |
|
|
There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!!
|
|
Rod B
Orange Level
Joined: 25 Jul 2011
Location: Peoria
Points: 415
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Feb 2013 at 7:36am |
|
To show his contradictions of his actions vs his crappy advice
|
|
Mrgoodwrench
Orange Level
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Location: CHICORA PA
Points: 2081
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Feb 2013 at 7:58am |
|
i was thinking more of pankey quoting himself in consecutive posts 1 min apart
|
|
There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!!
|
|
mlpankey
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Vols country
Points: 4580
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Feb 2013 at 10:27am |
|
Us. 21 will so 300 cfm without work. Just how small a carb would you want to finx in 350. To 468 inches. Thats wherea the problem lies build rwice the cubic inches and try to run the samecarb that came on 226 inches rated at 45 horsepower.
|
|
mlpankey
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Vols country
Points: 4580
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Feb 2013 at 10:54am |
|
Rob carburator cfms are always higher than cylinder head airflows on engines 1150 cfm carb will easily be placed on 350 cfm of cylinder head aifflow.a engine is rated in cubic inches of displacement. If it displaces 400 cubic in hes of air it is know as a 400 cubic inch engine. It displaces that wither the butterflies are open or close. The difference is the density of the air.the more they butterflies are open the more dense the air is but the barrel will only flow so much so wben its not dense enough barrel size should increase. Then fuel increase to keep the dense mixture from being lean.
Edited by mlpankey - 23 Feb 2013 at 11:08am
|
|
Rod B
Orange Level
Joined: 25 Jul 2011
Location: Peoria
Points: 415
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Feb 2013 at 11:13am |
mlpankey wrote:
Us. 21 will so 300 cfm without work. Just how small a carb would you want to finx in 350. To 468 inches. Thats wherea the problem lies build rwice the cubic inches and try to run the samecarb that came on 226 inches rated at 45 horsepower. |
Who ever sold you that carb sure took you for a ride. They were used on jd 3010's and will n not move anywhere close to 300 cfm. With or without work. Though they are good for half that.
|
|
mlpankey
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Vols country
Points: 4580
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Feb 2013 at 11:56am |
|
Beter get marty to check on for you. They came on 4010 . Either way a tsx 464 aint going to outflow it.
|
|
WildBill
Silver Level
Joined: 26 Aug 2012
Location: Mandan,ND
Points: 190
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 Feb 2013 at 2:25pm |
|
Pank slow down when you type words !!! Look at the horsesh!t spelling dude!!
|
|
Allis fan for life ! B,C,2-WC'S,WD45G,D19G,190xt ,LLSS 8010, terra tiger refurbished
|
|
wi50
Orange Level
Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Location: weegieland
Points: 1010
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 Feb 2013 at 6:46pm |
|
Sometime when I have a bit more time I'll post up some carb tricks and math. How to figure venturi size for the engine and how to figure efficiency to size things appropriatly for the application.
BTW. Usx 21 was used on JD 3010 and 4010 tractors. They are a poor choice because of the layout of the internals. Just to short to get any short side radius to line the air up with the venturi. It's just not an efficient package to start with when there's better choices redialy available. It worked for it's application, supporting 80 hp and poorly mixing a lot of fuel.
|
|
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
|
|
mlpankey
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Vols country
Points: 4580
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 Feb 2013 at 6:55pm |
|
It was good for dense air and farmers disliked them for the fuel they burned verses other carbs. This post started out about getting more fuel through a carb. A tsx 464 if i remember.the larger the displacement the larger the throttle bores the smaller the displacement the smaller it will like even if they have the same overall airflow demand due to peak rpm being the difference.
Edited by mlpankey - 24 Feb 2013 at 7:13pm
|
|
Ihateillinoisnazis
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Location: By The Lake
Points: 273
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 Feb 2013 at 10:04pm |
mlpankey wrote:
It was good for dense air and farmers disliked them for the fuel they burned verses other carbs. This post started out about getting more fuel through a carb. A tsx 464 if i remember.the larger the displacement the larger the throttle bores the smaller the displacement the smaller it will like even if they have the same overall airflow demand due to peak rpm being the difference. |
Just when we think you can't get any dumber... The ramblings of an idiot continue.
|
|
CAL(KS)
Orange Level
Joined: 18 Sep 2009
Location: Chapman, KS
Points: 3732
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Feb 2013 at 5:22am |
wi50 wrote:
Sometime when I have a bit more time I'll post up some carb tricks and math. How to figure venturi size for the engine and how to figure efficiency to size things appropriatly for the application. |
woohoo!! something productive.
Pank, you are not required to reply to all of Wi's posts, in fact, alot of us would prefer if you didnt, cause then everything turns into a pissing match. if you have something you feel is productive to share then lets leave it at that.
Guys, can we trim the drama. Its seems more and more get dragged in. I understand the frustration with certain members, but egging on isnt curbing anything.
How many topics have turned from a few lines of useful information to page after page of bull ?
I apologize for the rant, and im not trying to take sides here, we arent one color VS another, were all here for orange......
|
|
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
|
|
mlpankey
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Vols country
Points: 4580
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Feb 2013 at 7:52am |
|
ok throttle bore 1.25 x venturi . your wrong also wi and andy choose to pull other brands.
Edited by mlpankey - 25 Feb 2013 at 7:53am
|
|
Ihateillinoisnazis
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Location: By The Lake
Points: 273
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Feb 2013 at 8:12am |
mlpankey wrote:
ok throttle bore 1.25 x venturi . your wrong also wi and andy choose to pull other brands. |
Other brands AND Allis. You really need to get your facts straight before posting on the Internet. You continue to make yourself look stoooopid. ...and no spank, no one is imitating your junk. People on here are looking to be winners. You have proven you aren't a winner. Remember spAnk... Five hooks and boom.
|
|
unstylish_
Silver Level
Joined: 19 Dec 2012
Location: southwestern Mi
Points: 129
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Feb 2013 at 9:08am |
|
Pank, I'm pretty sure every tractor I own could kick your butt cause all it has to do is start! I've made scrap into competitive pulling tractors. You've made competitive pulling tractors into scrap.
|
|
mlpankey
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Vols country
Points: 4580
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Feb 2013 at 10:19am |
unstylish_ wrote:
Pank, I'm pretty sure every tractor I own could kick your butt cause all it has to do is start! I've made scrap into competitive pulling tractors. You've made competitive pulling tractors into scrap. |
i doubt it even if you pushed it that it would run to even ride to tn let alone pull . but if it will you have made a big turn around in a short time from sleeping with parts to assembing them
Edited by mlpankey - 25 Feb 2013 at 10:20am
|
|
Glockhead SWMI
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: South West Mich
Points: 2657
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Feb 2013 at 11:15am |
Ive got video of Andys tractor at a pull from last summer....
|
|
unstylish_
Silver Level
Joined: 19 Dec 2012
Location: southwestern Mi
Points: 129
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Feb 2013 at 11:32am |
|
I sold that big crank on the classifieds here on unofficial Allis. I built the motor I'm running a few yrs ago. The Professional Weegie just helped it run alot better. It's ok. I wouldn't waste my time going to tn. You could never be depended on to show up regardless. Besides if I wanted more competition I've got Wisconsin
|
|
arcticcat
Silver Level
Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Location: michigan
Points: 64
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Feb 2013 at 11:35am |
|
Unstylish contact me when you can
|
|
mlpankey
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Vols country
Points: 4580
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Feb 2013 at 12:30pm |
|
listen to the crying reasons already for not pulling and getting beat by me .
|
|
unstylish_
Silver Level
Joined: 19 Dec 2012
Location: southwestern Mi
Points: 129
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Feb 2013 at 1:26pm |
|
Again, all I have to do is start my tractor to beat you. There is no crying. Simple reasoning will show that there is no good way to compare our efforts. After all, you dont even have a tractor. Secondly, I have nothing to prove, Third, You have proven yourself as slimy and spineless as any liberal or politician, and finally, beating you would be like beating a retard. Id still lose, because, well, you are a retard. Say what ever youd like, because, for the record, I have no interest or time to be concerned with traveling all the way to your neck of the woods in order to prove to ? WHO ? that you are an idiot. I believe you are the only one who thinks anything of your own abilities. Therefore, There would be no benefit for me. Besides you remind me of one of those guys with an excuse for ANY occasion. Im pretty sure that EVERYONE between here to YT has you pegged for what you are. But its ok, little buddy, cause you did admit to living in a fantasy world, so do everyone a favor and return. I hear the village is missing their idiot. Thx, and have a wonderful day.
|
|
wi50
Orange Level
Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Location: weegieland
Points: 1010
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Feb 2013 at 3:26pm |
Please let us know when we can see you pull "jealous mitch"
Anyway I said when I have time I'd give a little explanation of the carb sizeing.
1st rule to understand is that air is not drawn into the engine by the cylinder. No matter what you may think or believe it simply isn't true. Air is pushed in by atmospheric pressure, not drawn in. An engine makes more power at sea level than at 10,000 feet right. The oxygen content is abut the same at both, but the air is much denser at sea level, it's got more "push" to get it into the cylinder.
Still don't believe it, why does a turbocharged engine make more power? the air is forced into the cylinder, for every atmosphere of pressure, the engine thinks it's double in size. Our naturally aspirated 301 for example makes 80 HP, give it 15 psi of boost and it's got more power, 30 PSI and power has doubled. At least in theory, there's a loss from thermal inefficeincy.
It takes a certain amount of "depression" or lack of pressure for a carb to work properly. That is the difference in pressure from atmospheric to the manifold, intake port. Cylinder pressure may be less, the valve restricts flow, the manifold, the intake port is not a verry efficeint place to transfer air.
The standard testing pressure or "dperession" is 1.5"hg or 1.5" of mercury for a 4 barrel carb. 2 barrels are rated at 3"hg. 1.5" hg is about 20.4" H2O and 3"hg is about 40.8" H2O. So if I'm compareing some flow numbers I'm going to test and rate all these single barrel updraft tractor carbs at 40.8" H2O when I pull a test on them on the flow bench. It takes more depression or a greater pressure differential for them to work over a 4 barrel downdraft carb.
It also takes a lot more air speed through these single barrel carbs to vaporize the fuel. They just are not as good at drawing fuel out of that large straw and out of the sump than a nice Holley is with booster venturi's. We need to keep more pressure differential in the single barrel updraft in order for it to work properly. Or in simple terms, the air speed needs to be higher to vaporize the fuel.
So why will an engine make more power with a 4 barrel downdraft on it than a single barrel updraft? It gets more air through the downdraft. Atmospheric pressure is able to fill the cylinder better, there's less pressure difference, meaning that the air is free to fill the cylinder more so than through the updraft. Well sort of anyway...... we'll cover more on that later.
So now we understand that it takes more air speed through that single barrel updraft to make it function. What happens when it's to big? The air speed is to slow and it does a poor job of picking up the fuel it needs to carry. The signal from the cylinder is transfered to the venturi through the valve opening, the intake port and the manifold. This signal is what the carb needs in order to pick up and carry the fuel. A poor flowing head, poor valve angles, poor flowing manifold will not transfer the signal as well as one with improvements.
Now we see the importance of head, cam, manifold work. The engine is the same size, but it's much easier for that atmpshpere to find it's way into the cylinder, which brings us to rule # 2, which is air does not like to turn corners.
It's got to snake it's way into the carb, bend, go up through the venturi, around the throttle plate, in a manifold and around a bunch of bends and corners before stumbling on a valve and into it's usefull place in the engine. With the downdraft, we eliminate some of these corners.
So the original poster wants a carb to feed his 226 engine at 2000 RPM. The standard formula is Displacement X RPM divided by 3456 = Carb CFM rateing. So 2000X226 / 3456 is 130 CFM.
But we don't want 130 CFM, our engine is not efficient use, and 2000 RPM is to high, in the 2000 RPM rateing, we probably want peak torque to be at 1600, meaning that it'll be fine at 2000 or at 1200. Then take some for the ineffiiciency of the engine and we want closer to 100 CFM for it, a little more is great.
A venturi is an orfice. Every orfice has a coefficient of flow. Good, bad or otherwise. A venturi has a pretty good flow coefficient. Meaning that a venturi can flow more air per square inch of area than a straight pipe can. Take that straight pipe and put a radius around the end, it'll flow more air, radius the inlet and the outlet and it'll flow even more. GIve it a better radius, like the end of a tuba or a velocity stack and it'll flow even more for a given size and test pressure, or lack of pressure (deprression)
Our "orfice" or venturi can flow about 180 CFM per square inch of area when tested in the updraft carb. So a carb with a 1.12" diameter venturi can flow about 180 CFM of air.
So if I take a carb with a 1.12" venturi and flow test it, why does it only flow 130 CFM? The math says it should flow 180 CFM but it doesn't. If I take and increase the inlet and discharge coefficient of flow, it will flow more air. When I get it perfect it'll flow the 180 cfm but it's a long road to get it perfect. It needs help to get the air lined up with the venturi, it needs lots of bowl modifications. These single barrel updraft carbs have verry little short side radius for the air to bend around and line up with the venturi. They have a thick throttle shaft and throttle plate for the air to have to go around once it exits the venturi.
So do some bowl modifications, trick the air into going around a longer radius to line up with the venturi, thin the throttle shaft, but shape it like an airplane wing, leading edge on front and a short radius on the back side.
The choke shaft and choke blade are another source of loss. I've seen a lot of them removed because people think it helps to take them out. It doesn't. Typically a carb flows less air with the choke removed than with it in. Take and rotate the choke blade a few degrees to offer a little "lift" to the incomeing air charge and direct it into the venturi better, the carb flows more air with it lifting the air than with it laying flat.
We wanted a carb for a 226 CID at 2000 RPM. Can anyone tell me how large the venturi is in a TSX 464? It's about .940" in diameter. In stock form that carb has a hard time to break 100 CFM mark on the flow bench. Lets take the .940" venturi and figure out what it could flow in theory. In a perfect world up to about 130 CFM. THough currently without any carb enhancements it's closer to 100 CFM. Rember what we wanted for a 2000 RPM engine in the first place?....... right in that area.
Also rember we need a lot of air speed for this single barrel updraft carb to work. More air speed is better, provideing our "resistance" to atmospheric pressure isn't to great to harm performance. Excessive depression is robbing power. We need enough to make things work, but to much means things are to restrictive. Rember the turbocharged example, boost is positive pressure. The more pressure, the bigger the breath of air. An engine running at 25"hg depression makes verry little power, in fact it's enough to idle. The same engine at 7"hg depression is makeing some power.
We don't need a bigger venturi, the carb is sized pretty good for it's application. The carb is even better with a little help in terms of bowl mods, throttle shaft mods, throttle plate, etc.
Maybe I want to feed a 380 CID Allis at 2064 RPM, lets say that the cam is ground, nice head and manifold work, etc. I did everything I could to maximize the flow coefficient of the orfice leading from Mother Nature into the engines cylinder. The rules say I can peak out at 2064 RPM, so I may figure I want peak torque at say 1700 for an engine package that will perform well all the way through it's expected operating range...... I want to put about 180 CFM rateing on that engine, or a carb with a 1.2" venturi, and everything optimized in the carb. I want to work dang hard perfecting the airflow pattern through the carb...... I could put a carb on with a 1.9" venturi, but the engine is going to run and when the load hits, it's going to fall on it's face.
This 380 CID operating at that speed can use a TSX 66, 67 or like carb. Minne Moline used them. A bone stock one cleaned up flows roughly 130 CFM. With a custom venturi made to blend into the bowl, some throttle shaft work, and lots of scientific bowl work that carb can be made to flow in excess of 180 CFM. Guess what's a great match for these engines.
A larger venturi can be made to work well with less signal. The use of a small venturi inside a large venturi or the use of a "booster" venturi is helpfull getting a stronger signal at the fuel nozzle. I can now run a venturi that is a little to large and help the low speed performance through the booster.
Some of you used this carb from "dumb luck" some from others reccomondation, or others tried a few things and found it to be a good match......well guess what? you're right. A Holley 1150 Dominator is a poor choice for this application. The engine is to small and moveing to slow, the manifold and the ports to restrictive for our atmpshpere to push it's way into the engine with enough speed to carry any fuel in form to make any power.
|
|
"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
|
|
mlpankey
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Vols country
Points: 4580
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 5:25pm |
|
Put to small a venturi on it and you will choke it even more if yor air speed hits the magic number. Simple sentence but a true one.
|
|
SuperM74
Bronze Level
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Hustonville,Ky
Points: 22
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 6:36pm |
|
Some people just simply have little to do..... Wi50, seems to be very knowledgeable when it comes to the I.C.E. I.C.E. is Internal Combustion Engine Spankey, just incase that confused you.... LOL!
|
|
You can't make chicken salad, outta chicken sh*t! Proof's in the pudding!
|
|
mlpankey
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Vols country
Points: 4580
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 6:59pm |
yeap if you work out of a barn like marty be leary of droping your chewing gum . especially if its a barn with chickens.
I am so glad i have a full line automotive shop . its easy to tell grease from wrigleys
Edited by mlpankey - 27 Feb 2013 at 7:00pm
|
|
Ihateillinoisnazis
Orange Level
Joined: 15 Jan 2013
Location: By The Lake
Points: 273
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 9:00pm |
mlpankey wrote:
Put to small a venturi on it and you will choke it even more if yor air speed hits the magic number. Simple sentence but a true one. |
Duuurrrrr!! Way to go caption obvious! You really are bright, maybe you're finally learning something!
mlpankey wrote:
yeap if you work out of a barn like marty be leary of droping your chewing gum . especially if its a barn with chickens.
I am so glad i have a full line automotive shop . its easy to tell grease from wrigleys |
Have you ever met Marty, or been in his shop? You really do talk like a man with a paper a$$ you spineless prick. You have nothing to show besides the fact that you are a retard with a keyboard.
Spunky, your old man must have jerked off on a flower pot, you really are a blooming idiot. Go away troll.
|
|
Rod B
Orange Level
Joined: 25 Jul 2011
Location: Peoria
Points: 415
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 9:03pm |
mlpankey wrote:
Put to small a venturi on it and you will choke it even more if yor air speed hits the magic number. Simple sentence but a true one. |
If you had paid attention and understand what's spelled out in fron of you, you'd understand that's why you figure out the airflow requirements of the engine. Then figure the carbeurator venturi size. Pay attention to wi and learn something.
|
|
SuperM74
Bronze Level
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Hustonville,Ky
Points: 22
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 9:15pm |
|
Whats the name and address of your shop Spankey, i am going to Nashville in a few weeks for a small vacation... I might swing by and check your operation out....
|
|
You can't make chicken salad, outta chicken sh*t! Proof's in the pudding!
|
|
SuperM74
Bronze Level
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Hustonville,Ky
Points: 22
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Feb 2013 at 9:22pm |
|
Or, what is your website? Most reputable automotive machine sites have a web page... I.E. Custom Race Engines, Cornett Automotive, Jay Dickens Racing Engines, Riverside, Haisley Machine..... You get the idea...
|
|
You can't make chicken salad, outta chicken sh*t! Proof's in the pudding!
|
|
