Calling Dave Kamp

The Char Lynn power steering system is definitely a workable option independent of whether the vintage tractor has or doesn't have power steering.

Gerald J.

desertjoe wrote: I been dwelling on one part of the factory D14 power steering system (PSS). On the D15 II I had, I had to remove and completely disassemble the whole front support ... the " Ram Cylinder assy" had a "gear rack" with slotted teeth, ... I cannot remember what the purpose of the "cylinder ram",,,cause I can't figure WHAT the rack actually moves.

Okay, so on factory power steering systems on most cars, and frankly, most early tractors, the power steering is called 'power assist', and for good reason. It is ACTUALLY a MECHANICAL steering system, but has a sensing valve in the steering linkage, and that sensing valve controls flow to a cylinder which somehow HELPS the mechanical steering.

Let's talk about an easy-to-understand system that Ford used in the early-mid 60's through the early '70's. You had a ordinary mechanical steering system, but the 'drag link' from the steering box to the knuckle, had a little spot in it where an inner segment slipped into an outer segment... and it was made so you couldn't pull them apart or jam them together. A design term that's commonly used to describe it, is 'Lost Motion'... or simply... INTENTIONAL SLOP in the link. You could turn the steering wheel, and the steering box would push and pull the knuckle, but there was about a sixteenth of a wheel turn of intentional slop built INTO the drag link.

Mounted to the side of the drag link, as part of the assembly, was a small hydraulic valve. When the link's slop was collapsed, the valve would flow hydraulic fluid to the steering ram in ONE direction. When the link slop was extended, the valve would flow the opposite. When the slop was absolutely neutral, the hydraulic flow was neutral... none.

On this system, the steering cylinder was oftentimes mounted to the axle, and the tie rod, or from knuckle to frame.

The result, is that when you turned the steering wheel, the intentional 'slop' in the sensing drag link would pressurize the cylinder in whatever direction you had the steering link biased towards, and with it, the power ramp would be pushing the tires to left or right... until the rod slop was neutral.

It was, in fact, a 'servo' system... and not only did it work very well, if it had any failure of the power assist, the mechanical linkage still worked, with just a wee bit of wheel slop.

Let's forward this to your D-series. I haven't had one apart, so I don't have a clue, but if there's a cylinder, and it's acting on a rack, which acts upon a pinion, then that pinion obviously contributes to steering effort.

I'm absolutely certain that the factory design had incorporated into the pedestal not only that ram, rack, and pinion, that it also included a 'sensory' valving system where the steering shaft comes into the pedestal.

Keep in mind that the sensory system NEEDS some sort of 'lost motion' to work properly. I know a guy that didn't realize this, and the more slop he removed from his systemm, the worse his steering effort got... because he'd effectively robbed himself of all the sensory action.

desertjoe wrote: After re-reading your recent post,,,are you mayhaps, alluding to the possibility of a big chunk of the pressureized oil may be by-passing the control valve or the PRV on the pump itself thru it's pressure relief valve ... Yeah, that's entirely possible... and it may be that the factory setup doesn't even have a pressure relief... one of the big happy-features of a vane type ssystem, is that it doesn't NEED a at all. If they set it up for with a PRV, it would suggest to me that this is a closed-center system., and I just don't think so. [QUOTE=desertjoe]  I was talkin to a Farmer friend yesterday and he tells me he has "retrofitted" some of his loaders with a "Char-lynn steering assist" off some of his older combines and solved his problems with hard steering on those loaders,,,,!!! He said he left the original power steering systems in place, just added the steering assist on the steering shaft. ???

I think Char-Lynn's power-assist kits were very similar to, if not what Ford used on the applications and timeframe I mentioned above.

                It was on the chemical process of manufacturing dyes most commonly used by byzantine monks in the manufacture of eremonial hankerchiefs...

    Good Mornin,,Dave kamp,,,
        


Edited by desertjoe - 13 Dec 2016 at 4:46am

    Chit,,can't figure what the hay is happenin,,the screenshot I took from the Agco parts books is PNG, so I opened and saved as a JPEG and had to do it several times as it kept goin back to a PNG,,,finally stayed as a JPEG,,,HMmm??
 THEN it wouldn't let me add notes to the screenshot post above,,WTH,,,??
  Anyway, Dave as you can see,,#33,,which is the Ram Cylinder with the rack does not seem to attach to anything but I KNOW it must,,,??
 #6,, control valve drives #14, then #16, then down to center steering arm (not shown on this pic. My memory has gone to chit,,as I had the assy completely apart on the D15 which is the same as the D14, several months ago,,,but just cannot remember what the "rack" was joined to,,,???
 What'a you think,,??

    Hey Dave,,,and a good mornin to you,,,
  Since I have just aboot got this most recent Oh-Oh with the engine overheatin resolved,,I been givin your posts some more thought.
   OK, I NOW understand the control valve being the "sensing" part and the Ram cylinder actually doing the pushing/pulling on the big idler gear and it p/p on the steering gear,,,,,and that  knowledge leads me to remember back when I first started the rebuilding the D14,,,I found the P/S reservoir was almost full of of some reddish powder lookin rust,,,!! I took the ram cylinder, the control valve, and the reservoir apart and flushed em all out  till clean. The 4 gears, splines and pins were all in very good shape after clean up,,,,,BUT,,,I did NOT replace the rings on the ram piston and prolly should have,,,!!! Here's my plan,,
    1. re-look at the pump as the check ball on it's PRV worries me some.
    2. relook at the control valve, to ensure the feed port/line to the ram cylinder is ok.
    3. Open the ram cylinder and replace the rings on piston.
    4. Tractor currently has 285-65-16 tires @50 PSI for bigger footprint.

didn't know there were any schools back when Ted was younger!

Desertjoe a pm has been sent!

   Mr. Tucker,,,,had I not seen thet cute blond haired young fellar with the Geetar,,,,why,,,,,I,,,I would have bet a healthy amount of dollar bills,,,,,that that cute post and suss'gestion  came from OLE SHAMELESS,,,,,,,,
 Although,,,,I am sorta relieved he's been keepin thet sharp azzed pok'er'er in his back pocket,,,,,,

and that new SS poker is to danged cold to hang on to in this COLD Canadian wind here! it's over by the stove soak'in up sum heat!

yeah Joe....and I are gonna have Cokes son make me a branding iron that fits that poker too! guess what it will say!

shameless (ne) wrote: yeah Joe....and I are gonna have Cokes son make me a branding iron that fits that poker too! guess what it will say!

Won't SAY CHIT......you gotta read it.......

DaveKamp wrote: It was on the chemical process of manufacturing dyes most commonly used by byzantine monks in the manufacture of eremonial hankerchiefs...

Did they weave them? DANG.......the guy is a walking encyclopedia and has a GREAT sense of humor too!!  You ROCK Dave....

shameless (ne) wrote: didn't know there were any schools back when Ted was younger!

  Heck yes.......1st through 8th grade in ONE room......I was the valedictorian, the class clown and the smartest kid in my class......of ONE........hehehe.

desertjoe wrote: It was on the chemical process of manufacturing dyes most commonly used by byzantine monks in the manufacture of eremonial hankerchiefs...     Good Mornin,,Dave kamp,,,

  An here I thought you was my bud......oh heck........

CTuckerNWIL wrote: Joe, after reading all this, I have decided you have a REAL EASY fix right behind you. Just pick up something heavy with the backhoe whenever you want to move something heavy with the loader. The counter weight will make steering way easier if there isn't an internal problem in the steering system.

  I just KNEW you was gonna have Shameless hep you with the whole thing......... Well, he's up to the task....... (Don't look now, but I'm ducking!!)  Look out JC, it's coming yer way.....

   Hey Guys,,,gosh,,, am I excited,,,!!!  Thanks to AllisMan32, I talked to Chris' Father last night, who is a retired former A/C dealer in Indiana. That man has a mountain of knowledge bout most things Allis Chalmers,,!! He reads bout all our shenanigans and goings on here although he doesn't post,,,he just reads and laughs along with everybody else at ole Shameless' antics,,,,,
   We talked for the longest time and he offered some great suggestions for me to try on the steering issue with the D14. Ole John and ole Dave Kamp musta been to the same A/C seminars, cause the first thing ole John tells me is to check the worm gear that shuttles the control valve. "The worm gear "Must" be able to move slightly on it's shaft in order for the control valve to send pressurized oil to the ram cylinder" he says,,,HOLIE SMOKES,,,could it be that easy for me to resolve this big PITA,,,? Let me explain why,,,,,,
   Ya see,,,when I opened up the whole P/S system for a cleanup of all the red sand lookin "stuff" in there,,,I noticed the nut that anchors the worm gear to the shaft,,,was sorta loose,,so bein a good Shade Tree Mechanic that I am,,,why,,I just tightened her right up,,,BY Golly,,,,!!!
 Now Ya'll remember ole Dave Kamp's class explainin how the worm gear HAS to be able to move slightly in order for the control valve to "sense" which direction to pump fluid,,,???? Ole John tells me "The procedure is to snug the nut, then back it off 3 flats and stake the nut to a slot on the shaft so the nut can't loosen or tighten,,,,,,
 He also offered a quickie procedure on how to check for leakage or by-passin of the ram cylinder rings. I tell youse Guys,,,ole John is a wealth of knowledge..I'm bettin him and ole Dave Kamp could talk for hours ,,,,!!!
   Well,,Ill be go to hel,,,,er,,,I'm impressed and very interested to see if I can do this "re-adjusting" of the dang worm gear 'thought takin the whole front end apart but soon as I get done cleanin up the neighbor's yard,,,and get the cooling issue finished on the D14,,,I AM going to do this cause sure as I'm settin here,,THAT is why the P.S isn't carryin the mail,,,,,Wish me luck,,,,,

So it just so happens that I've got a little front-end loader tractor in the garage tonight, I've pulled out the Kohler single-cylinder (K301) and and doing a little work to make enough space for an 18hp Vanguard.

Anyway, this is the machine that I built up about twenty years ago, from a nice selection of parts from various models of Cub Cadet, and reinforced the chassis, and fitted up a Johnson Workhorse loader to it.

The Cub Cadet comes with a stout cast iron axle, and fairly strong spindles, but not stout enough for my plans... easier to say, I bent the spindles, and broke the axle, mangled the steering box, turned the drag link into a pretzel, and the tie rod a piece of spaghetti... several times.

Now, I like machines that work hard. I don't expect them to do it without needing some regular attention, but I DO expect them to be strong enough to work hard AND survive it. Everybody knows that the Cub Cadet iron-case transaxle was the beast... and the driveline didn't have any difficulty carrying stock power to it's limits... and for any 'standard' purpose, the front end and steering was fine. I'm just the kind of guy that turns up the wick too far at times.

So to resolve several problems, I totally replaced the front axle system, and steering concept. Perhaps Joe will post the pictures I sent him... there's no reason a guy couldn't do the same thing with a full sized tractor.

I fabricated the new front axle from a piece of 2" x 5" by 1/4" wall tubing. The knuckle pivots are 1-3/4" solid rod, which I bored and fitted with oillite bronze bushings for 3/4" grade 10 bolts for kingpins. The knuckles are 4" steel channel-iron with 1/2" plate tops and bottoms. The tie rod (in the rear) is 1.25" heavy-wall square tubing with rod-end joints salvaged from an old truck scale. The knuckles are fitted with 1" solid trailer-type spindles and 5-bolt trailer hubs, with matching wheels and 8-ply trailer tires. The axle, knuckles, kingpins, and main pivot are strong enough to support much more than the tires and wheels are capable of, but the whole assembly weighs only about 20% more than the original assembly.

Now, I nixed the original steering box and drag link, instead, I fitted two small hydraulic rams to the front of the axle, and the rod ends of the cylinders are pinned to the front of each knuckle. All steering forces are compression... push in one direction, push in the other.

The cylinder's 'back side' ports are connected togther, so that there is no need for 'venting, as this would allow the cylinders to ingest dirt and water if I was ever half-submerged (me? Noooh....) Nice thing is, that since I have two symmetrial cylinders, the displacement going one way, is same as the other... it's naturally balanced.

The steeriung valve is a common brand and model, fairly small displacement... I have about four turns lock-to-lock, and it's got LOTS of steering angle. Combine that with a short wheelbase, and this machine turns on a dime.

The nicest part of running cylinders directly mounted to the axle, is that NO steering forces are imnpressed upon the axle pivot... so if a tire is jammed up against a rock, and I crank the wheel, the axle pivit really isn't getting any fore-afte force as it used to. I also means that axle slop doesn't make it 'bump-steer' or wander down the road.

But keep in mind... this isn't 'Power-Assist Steering'... it's totally hydraulic... there is no mechanical action here. If the engine isn't running, I can still steer it, because the steering valve has an integral pump... it will just be slow, and require additional effort. When the engine is running, though, it's a one-finger task, regardless of how heavy the load on the bucket is.

One little note of physics to remember:

If you have a loader on a tractor, and the loader and tractor combination weighs 5000lbs, and you lift 1500lbs in the bucket, and the back tires are basically clawing the air, how much weight is on the front axle?

Answer: 6500lbs. The entire weight of the tractor, and the entire weight of the bucket... because the rear axle has no weight on the ground.

THIS is the reason why axles on tractors with front-end loaders take such a beating...

            PIC #2
 

Yeah, its strong...