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Allis 220 engine oil issues |
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Agwilly ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 2021 Location: Central Ontario Points: 20 |
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Long story, but i have rebuilt my 220 it has an early engine design with the cam drive oil pump. I cant seem to get above 10 psi engine oil pressure anything below 1100 RPM i can get 40 PSI no trouble at high idle.I can no longer get a new oil pump for this motor and have tried another used one.no better. i have checked clearance of cam bushings and crank bearings and are all in spec. I have played around with adjusting valve but doesn't make a difference. I am out of ideas to figure out what is wrong with this engine. I sure would appreciate any help or ideas .
Thanks Bill. |
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Alvin M ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 24 Jun 2018 Location: PA Points: 794 |
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Make sure the insert where the oil pressure piston seats on is in the block
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21500 |
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What's the back story on this engine?? Did it have oil pressure issues before the overhaul?? Was the crankshaft re-ground undersized?? You say you checked bearing clearances, but that cannot technically be done in chassis because the weight of the crankshaft is laying on the plastigauge. Also, no oil can be on the crank or bearing shells to get an accurate reading. This is the original block and oil pump ??
Edited by DrAllis - 06 Mar 2021 at 4:38pm |
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Agwilly ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 2021 Location: Central Ontario Points: 20 |
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I purchased the tractor about 8 years ago and have used it for odd jobs. When i bought it the block has either been out and hot tanked or a different block. (its brown) I don't recall the oil pressure an issue before but not sure if electrical was all working correctly. I decided to try and restore the tractor for one of my boys so we decided to rebuild the engine to start with. I have had engine out twice now because i cant get pan off. I pulled pan and flywheel and rear plate as we seem to also have a bad rear main seal leak( i had just replaced the seal and sleeve on flywheel.)Its laying on its side at the moment so i thought that would be a good way to check bearings. I put a standard kit in it. This is the second oil pump i have put in it and i keep thinking that its the problem but unfortunately i cant purchase a new one (unless someone can tell me were to purchase a new one) I have also made sure that the seat is correctly seated for the pressure regulator. I have done many engines but will admit this one seems to have me stumped. I appreciate any advise.
Thanks Bill.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21500 |
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If that engine block is brown/maroon, it is from a 7000 series tractor. My guess is it has piston cooling jets in the upper main bearing shells to cool the pistons. That old oil pump will never make any oil pressure if it has six piston cooling jets to feed. It needs a newer crankshaft driven oil pump which is higher volume and designed to work with those cooling jets. This is an assumption on my part. I'm not there looking at it. Do you have the old main brg upper shells ??
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Agwilly ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 2021 Location: Central Ontario Points: 20 |
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unfortunately i don't have the old bearing shells anymore. This definitely sounds like a possibility but i had the crank completely out of the block and i don't remember holes drilled in the block for the jets like i've seen in case and Deere engines. I should be able to see them with a mirror fairly easily? If this is the case .... what do i do??
I appreciate your time Bill.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21500 |
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It would have been obvious to look at the upper main shells. They would have had a feed hole for the bearing and then a slot that aligned with the cooling jet hole. Either that or your crankshaft was reground a little too small creating the pressure problem. I know of a D-19 diesel not too far from me that had -.010" main bearings installed on a -.020" crankshaft regrind. Always had decent oil pressure when started and it kept falling the warmer it got.
Edited by DrAllis - 06 Mar 2021 at 7:04pm |
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Mikez ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Jan 2013 Location: Usa Points: 8645 |
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welcome to the forum bill. Good luck with your engine. Hope as you go you keep sharing your progress with us all
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pirlbeck ![]() Silver Level ![]() Joined: 01 Dec 2009 Location: West Central IA Points: 229 |
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I had a JD 4WD a number of years ago with low oil pressure and the galley plug was missing at the front of the block behind the cam gear. It is a pretty big job to get at the front of the engine on these tractors and we were able to pin point the leak by using a blow gun and air pressure blowing it into the port for the oil pressure sensor. This tractor was purchased at an auction down south and had a very recent engine rebuild.
Your engine should have a orifice plug at the front of the oil galley that oils the timing gear train, maybe it is missing. I would be surprised that you would have that much oil pressure cold if the plug was missing though. If you have the oil pan off I think I would try the air pressure in the oil sender hole while listening for large air escapes. Probably won't work if you have excessive leakage in a bunch of spots. You could also do a leakage test by pumping oil into the galley and seeing where it escapes abnormally at. Edit for spelling error.
Edited by pirlbeck - 07 Mar 2021 at 11:06am |
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Agwilly ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 2021 Location: Central Ontario Points: 20 |
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Well I don;t know if to be happy or cry... So i hooked an air line with a rate controller on it and a applied 40PSI were i had my oil pressure gauge hooked up and yes this engine has piston cooling jets. What do i do now??? We bought the tractor at auction so i have no way of knowing the history. I looked this morning for the old bearing shells. I remember when i changed them that the new ones seemed not as wide as what i took out. It was a Reliance kit. Any suggestions what to do now would be greatly appreciated.
Bill.
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Agwilly ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 2021 Location: Central Ontario Points: 20 |
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For what its worth i just looked up a set of standard main bearings on the A&I website and it says D-21 through to the 7030 all uses the same bearing set part number (74061642). i'm just wondering if there is such a thing as bearing cups that would cover over the cooling jets (i realize that's not a good thing but early engines got away with it) Any advise greatly appreciated Bill.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21500 |
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Make a trip to your favorite salvage yard and buy a good used crankshaft driven oil pump and lines AND the deep oil pan from a newer engine. Late 220's and all 210's would work. 7030 and up would be better. The front bolt holes in the oil pan might need some tweaking if it's from a 7030 or newer, because I don't know which front engine plate you have the thin (210-220) or thick (7030 and up).
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Agwilly ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 2021 Location: Central Ontario Points: 20 |
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So would i have to get another crankshaft as well? to have the gear to drive off of ? How will this mount to the block? Will i need to remove front cover to make this work? sorry for all the questions.Bill.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21500 |
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The story goes like this: early 220's had the old style camshaft driven oil pump. They had increased its GPM's a bit from the D-21. They started having failures of the camshaft/oil pump gears where they mated together. Too much pressure on these gears on cold start-up, especially if the operator throttled it wide open with 30 wt motor oil. They quickly came up with the crankshaft driven oil pump as the permanent fix. I've never installed one, but on a 220 block I believe you had to drill two 1/2" holes and tap them to 1/2" NC threads. The oil pump update kit came with lines and a new oil pan. I'm under the impression your block is already drilled for this. The crank gear is the same. Timing cover I'm not sure about if it works as-is or needs some grinding.
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Agwilly ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 2021 Location: Central Ontario Points: 20 |
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Ok great! This gives me some direction to work with. If anyone would happen to have a line on this pump and lines i sure would appreciate it. There isn't a lot of good salvage left for Allis i find in Ontario. Maybe i'm just not looking in the right places.Thanks again Bill.
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injpumpEd ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 5075 |
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This is a perfect example of why nothing gets pitched until the project is done. I really want to know what the upper main bearings looked like, as Dr mentioned above. If they were blocking the cooling holes, then that would explain why it seemed to work ok before. But, my concern here is if they were open, and it worked ok, then did you put standard bearings on an undersize crank? Engine had obviously been worked on by the block being a different color, maroon, or just bare iron? Now, go find the old bearings so we can all rest easy lol!
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Agwilly ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 2021 Location: Central Ontario Points: 20 |
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Just one more quick question. i see on the 7030 they have 2 different engine oil pumps it could be. Does it matter which one we get? Thanks Bill.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21500 |
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There have been a couple of different designs over the years. Anything crankshaft driven from a 426 will be far better than what you have currently. Get everything !!
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21500 |
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We've seen no pictures of this engine. It obviously has "piston-cooling" jets drilled in the block. This feature was only offered on the Generation 2 or what A-C called Mark 2 engines. So, this means your engine oil filters are positioned in a way that you could actually fill them with oil and screw them onto the engine, right ?? If so, which injection pump do you have ?? I've seen one 220 like this 40 years ago (had a 7040 short block) and the injection lines from the old "DC" injection pump had to be bent and contorted to fit around the Mark 2 eng oil cooler.
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SteveM C/IL ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8525 |
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Seems like todays kits come with upper shell made for jets and if block don't have em it just dead heads so doesn't matter. I'd do what it takes to keep the jets functional. Should be able to do as Dr says and get everything from salvage yard and bolt it on. Use the phone and tell em what you're doing. Bolts and all. Plenty of salvage in US and they all ship.
Years ago I looked through the rod hole at one of these and I think the jets were hex sided and screwed into top of main journal so technically you could remove and plug....but I could b wrong. Still prefer jets. Had my 220 jetted when it got rebuilt. Used pipe jets from a Binder. It has crank pump. Had to crank the regulator a bunch!
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Agwilly ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 2021 Location: Central Ontario Points: 20 |
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I will try to take some pictures tomorrow. To look at the engine it looks completely stock,except for being a brown block. No my engine oil filters screw on the opposite to what you said. cant fill the filters and it has a Rosa-Master injection pump on it. Unfortunately the serial plate has been removed from the back of the engine.
Have a nice evening Bill.
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SteveM C/IL ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8525 |
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I'm betting you have a replacement block. They have no data plate. One can be added. Probably has the 4 little holes with no sign of a drive rivet ever installed.
So you have the vertical oil cooler right behind the pump? Doc is referring to later style which filters hang off bottom of big fat oil cooler. Edited by SteveM C/IL - 07 Mar 2021 at 10:13pm |
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tbran ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Paris Tn Points: 3497 |
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I remember a set of bearings coming with a small ball to be driven in the cooling jet passage for non piston cooled applications. If one could find a set of old brgs they could be rolled in...
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21500 |
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Piston cooling jets are simply a small drilled hole in the blocks upper main brg saddle. No screw in jet orifice. So, this block/short block must have been a new replacement block manufactured at a time after piston cooling was common place on the 3000 series engine. That's just fine, as long as the upper main bearing shells are old school non-piston cooling type, which covers up the jet hole. Those style bearings are no longer available and haven't been for some time, so the solution is the larger GPM volume oil pump. There should have been instructions with that block/short block warning about this when it was assembled by someone in the field.
I know that AGCO had a bulletin that instructed tech's to plug that jet hole with a steel ball to plug it, but you cannot do that on an in-frame overhaul because the crankshaft has to be removed. The crank driven oil pump is a much better deal anyway. The pan holds more oil too.
Edited by DrAllis - 08 Mar 2021 at 7:14am |
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Alvin M ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 24 Jun 2018 Location: PA Points: 794 |
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I checked the part numbers for std and they show them on Tractor House.com
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Agwilly ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 2021 Location: Central Ontario Points: 20 |
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![]() ![]() I’m hoping this works to post pictures of my engine. Thanks Bill. |
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Agwilly ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 2021 Location: Central Ontario Points: 20 |
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SteveM C/IL ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8525 |
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When Doc weighs in he'll know whether those are pump mount holes up front and I'm wondering about that front cover. Almost doesn't look like there's room for the pump gear to get to the crank gear and still fit in the pan.
Looked at parts books and the mount and dowel holes are there for the crank pump. Looks like the driven gear will fit up there although book list 2 diff frt covers...cam VS crank drive so I don't know. It will all interchange so you may have to get frt cover along with pan pump and related hardware. Don't give up now! Edited by SteveM C/IL - 08 Mar 2021 at 8:22pm |
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Kenny L. ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: NEIOWA Points: 1334 |
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resize them
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MACK ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 17 Nov 2009 Points: 7664 |
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That is the old style block which does not have piston cooling, unless some one drilled the block. MACK
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