Allis 220 engine oil issues
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=178849
Printed Date: 01 Jun 2025 at 5:23am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Allis 220 engine oil issues
Posted By: Agwilly
Subject: Allis 220 engine oil issues
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 1:19pm
|
Long story, but i have rebuilt my 220 it has an early engine design with the cam drive oil pump. I cant seem to get above 10 psi engine oil pressure anything below 1100 RPM i can get 40 PSI no trouble at high idle.I can no longer get a new oil pump for this motor and have tried another used one.no better. i have checked clearance of cam bushings and crank bearings and are all in spec. I have played around with adjusting valve but doesn't make a difference. I am out of ideas to figure out what is wrong with this engine. I sure would appreciate any help or ideas . Thanks Bill. |
Replies:
Posted By: Alvin M
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 2:26pm
| Make sure the insert where the oil pressure piston seats on is in the block |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 4:01pm
| What's the back story on this engine?? Did it have oil pressure issues before the overhaul?? Was the crankshaft re-ground undersized?? You say you checked bearing clearances, but that cannot technically be done in chassis because the weight of the crankshaft is laying on the plastigauge. Also, no oil can be on the crank or bearing shells to get an accurate reading. This is the original block and oil pump ?? |
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 5:06pm
|
I purchased the tractor about 8 years ago and have used it for odd jobs. When i bought it the block has either been out and hot tanked or a different block. (its brown) I don't recall the oil pressure an issue before but not sure if electrical was all working correctly. I decided to try and restore the tractor for one of my boys so we decided to rebuild the engine to start with. I have had engine out twice now because i cant get pan off. I pulled pan and flywheel and rear plate as we seem to also have a bad rear main seal leak( i had just replaced the seal and sleeve on flywheel.)Its laying on its side at the moment so i thought that would be a good way to check bearings. I put a standard kit in it. This is the second oil pump i have put in it and i keep thinking that its the problem but unfortunately i cant purchase a new one (unless someone can tell me were to purchase a new one) I have also made sure that the seat is correctly seated for the pressure regulator. I have done many engines but will admit this one seems to have me stumped. I appreciate any advise. Thanks Bill.
|
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 5:25pm
| If that engine block is brown/maroon, it is from a 7000 series tractor. My guess is it has piston cooling jets in the upper main bearing shells to cool the pistons. That old oil pump will never make any oil pressure if it has six piston cooling jets to feed. It needs a newer crankshaft driven oil pump which is higher volume and designed to work with those cooling jets. This is an assumption on my part. I'm not there looking at it. Do you have the old main brg upper shells ?? |
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 6:48pm
|
unfortunately i don't have the old bearing shells anymore. This definitely sounds like a possibility but i had the crank completely out of the block and i don't remember holes drilled in the block for the jets like i've seen in case and Deere engines. I should be able to see them with a mirror fairly easily? If this is the case .... what do i do?? I appreciate your time Bill.
|
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 7:02pm
| It would have been obvious to look at the upper main shells. They would have had a feed hole for the bearing and then a slot that aligned with the cooling jet hole. Either that or your crankshaft was reground a little too small creating the pressure problem. I know of a D-19 diesel not too far from me that had -.010" main bearings installed on a -.020" crankshaft regrind. Always had decent oil pressure when started and it kept falling the warmer it got. |
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2021 at 10:38pm
| welcome to the forum bill. Good luck with your engine. Hope as you go you keep sharing your progress with us all |
Posted By: pirlbeck
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 8:11am
|
I had a JD 4WD a number of years ago with low oil pressure and the galley plug was missing at the front of the block behind the cam gear. It is a pretty big job to get at the front of the engine on these tractors and we were able to pin point the leak by using a blow gun and air pressure blowing it into the port for the oil pressure sensor. This tractor was purchased at an auction down south and had a very recent engine rebuild. Your engine should have a orifice plug at the front of the oil galley that oils the timing gear train, maybe it is missing. I would be surprised that you would have that much oil pressure cold if the plug was missing though. If you have the oil pan off I think I would try the air pressure in the oil sender hole while listening for large air escapes. Probably won't work if you have excessive leakage in a bunch of spots. You could also do a leakage test by pumping oil into the galley and seeing where it escapes abnormally at. Edit for spelling error.
|
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 10:37am
|
Well I don;t know if to be happy or cry... So i hooked an air line with a rate controller on it and a applied 40PSI were i had my oil pressure gauge hooked up and yes this engine has piston cooling jets. What do i do now??? We bought the tractor at auction so i have no way of knowing the history. I looked this morning for the old bearing shells. I remember when i changed them that the new ones seemed not as wide as what i took out. It was a Reliance kit. Any suggestions what to do now would be greatly appreciated. Bill.
|
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 10:53am
| For what its worth i just looked up a set of standard main bearings on the A&I website and it says D-21 through to the 7030 all uses the same bearing set part number (74061642). i'm just wondering if there is such a thing as bearing cups that would cover over the cooling jets (i realize that's not a good thing but early engines got away with it) Any advise greatly appreciated Bill. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 11:15am
| Make a trip to your favorite salvage yard and buy a good used crankshaft driven oil pump and lines AND the deep oil pan from a newer engine. Late 220's and all 210's would work. 7030 and up would be better. The front bolt holes in the oil pan might need some tweaking if it's from a 7030 or newer, because I don't know which front engine plate you have the thin (210-220) or thick (7030 and up). |
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 11:25am
| So would i have to get another crankshaft as well? to have the gear to drive off of ? How will this mount to the block? Will i need to remove front cover to make this work? sorry for all the questions.Bill. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 11:40am
| The story goes like this: early 220's had the old style camshaft driven oil pump. They had increased its GPM's a bit from the D-21. They started having failures of the camshaft/oil pump gears where they mated together. Too much pressure on these gears on cold start-up, especially if the operator throttled it wide open with 30 wt motor oil. They quickly came up with the crankshaft driven oil pump as the permanent fix. I've never installed one, but on a 220 block I believe you had to drill two 1/2" holes and tap them to 1/2" NC threads. The oil pump update kit came with lines and a new oil pan. I'm under the impression your block is already drilled for this. The crank gear is the same. Timing cover I'm not sure about if it works as-is or needs some grinding. |
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 12:14pm
| Ok great! This gives me some direction to work with. If anyone would happen to have a line on this pump and lines i sure would appreciate it. There isn't a lot of good salvage left for Allis i find in Ontario. Maybe i'm just not looking in the right places.Thanks again Bill. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 12:23pm
|
This is a perfect example of why nothing gets pitched until the project is done. I really want to know what the upper main bearings looked like, as Dr mentioned above. If they were blocking the cooling holes, then that would explain why it seemed to work ok before. But, my concern here is if they were open, and it worked ok, then did you put standard bearings on an undersize crank? Engine had obviously been worked on by the block being a different color, maroon, or just bare iron? Now, go find the old bearings so we can all rest easy lol! ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 6:07pm
| Just one more quick question. i see on the 7030 they have 2 different engine oil pumps it could be. Does it matter which one we get? Thanks Bill. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 6:29pm
| There have been a couple of different designs over the years. Anything crankshaft driven from a 426 will be far better than what you have currently. Get everything !! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 8:02pm
| We've seen no pictures of this engine. It obviously has "piston-cooling" jets drilled in the block. This feature was only offered on the Generation 2 or what A-C called Mark 2 engines. So, this means your engine oil filters are positioned in a way that you could actually fill them with oil and screw them onto the engine, right ?? If so, which injection pump do you have ?? I've seen one 220 like this 40 years ago (had a 7040 short block) and the injection lines from the old "DC" injection pump had to be bent and contorted to fit around the Mark 2 eng oil cooler. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 8:50pm
|
Seems like todays kits come with upper shell made for jets and if block don't have em it just dead heads so doesn't matter. I'd do what it takes to keep the jets functional. Should be able to do as Dr says and get everything from salvage yard and bolt it on. Use the phone and tell em what you're doing. Bolts and all. Plenty of salvage in US and they all ship. Years ago I looked through the rod hole at one of these and I think the jets were hex sided and screwed into top of main journal so technically you could remove and plug....but I could b wrong. Still prefer jets. Had my 220 jetted when it got rebuilt. Used pipe jets from a Binder. It has crank pump. Had to crank the regulator a bunch!
|
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 9:32pm
|
I will try to take some pictures tomorrow. To look at the engine it looks completely stock,except for being a brown block. No my engine oil filters screw on the opposite to what you said. cant fill the filters and it has a Rosa-Master injection pump on it. Unfortunately the serial plate has been removed from the back of the engine. Have a nice evening Bill.
|
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 10:11pm
|
I'm betting you have a replacement block. They have no data plate. One can be added. Probably has the 4 little holes with no sign of a drive rivet ever installed.
So you have the vertical oil cooler right behind the pump? Doc is referring to later style which filters hang off bottom of big fat oil cooler.
|
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2021 at 10:24pm
|
I remember a set of bearings coming with a small ball to be driven in the cooling jet passage for non piston cooled applications. If one could find a set of old brgs they could be rolled in... ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 7:11am
| Piston cooling jets are simply a small drilled hole in the blocks upper main brg saddle. No screw in jet orifice. So, this block/short block must have been a new replacement block manufactured at a time after piston cooling was common place on the 3000 series engine. That's just fine, as long as the upper main bearing shells are old school non-piston cooling type, which covers up the jet hole. Those style bearings are no longer available and haven't been for some time, so the solution is the larger GPM volume oil pump. There should have been instructions with that block/short block warning about this when it was assembled by someone in the field. I know that AGCO had a bulletin that instructed tech's to plug that jet hole with a steel ball to plug it, but you cannot do that on an in-frame overhaul because the crankshaft has to be removed. The crank driven oil pump is a much better deal anyway. The pan holds more oil too. |
Posted By: Alvin M
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 8:21am
| I checked the part numbers for std and they show them on Tractor House.com |
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 7:39pm
  I’m hoping this works to post pictures of my engine. Thanks Bill. |
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 7:41pm
|
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 8:07pm
|
When Doc weighs in he'll know whether those are pump mount holes up front and I'm wondering about that front cover. Almost doesn't look like there's room for the pump gear to get to the crank gear and still fit in the pan.
Looked at parts books and the mount and dowel holes are there for the crank pump. Looks like the driven gear will fit up there although book list 2 diff frt covers...cam VS crank drive so I don't know. It will all interchange so you may have to get frt cover along with pan pump and related hardware. Don't give up now!
|
Posted By: Kenny L.
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 8:23pm
resize them  |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 9:16pm
| That is the old style block which does not have piston cooling, unless some one drilled the block. MACK |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 9:30pm
|
Put compressed air in the oil galley and listen for a lot of air escaping in the front cover...after seeing this,,, looks like block has been changed- there is a allen headed plug with a hole drilled in it for gear lube - gotta be sure it is in. Unless I missed something 3500's did not have PC ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2021 at 9:33pm
| I have to admit I don’t think there’s enough room for the drive gear as well. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2021 at 7:28am
| Piston cooling jets can be verified (or not) by using a mirror and looking in the correct places. If you see one, there are 5 more. Also, removing one main cap and sliding out an upper main brg shell will verify if the piston cooling jets can even work, if there are any drilled in the block. If that front block plug with the orifice was missing, I don't think it would have any oil pressure. |
Posted By: WD45Diesel57
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2021 at 7:36am
Hi Bill im from south western ontario, and ive had good luck with Fawcett Tractor Supply in St. Marys Ont. for 7000 series parts they have a few around there! ------------- 1-B's, 2-C, 2-CA's,2-WF, 1-WC,1-G, 3-WD's, 2-WD45, 1-RC, 1-D17 Diesel, 1-D14, 2-D15,1-D17 row crop,1-D19 gas and All Crop 40,60,66,72,90 and 100 |
Agwilly wrote:Posted By: CDN 400
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2021 at 10:32am
|
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 9:07pm
| I have found a combine 426 engine can you tell me if the oil pan will fit under my 220? |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 9:39pm
| A hole drilled in the right place might just work. A long time ago I had to rebuild a Cummins 250 and the mountains of Colorado was to much for it with 80,000 lbs. So I drilled a 3/16 hole in the end of the rod, put 290 pistons in and turned her up, with a 400 turbo on it. Ran great, just had to watch the temps. a little bit. I don't know how many trips I made to Grand Junction and didn't have a problem. It can be done to any engine. Just be careful! Leon |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2021 at 10:33pm
| Have you determined for absolute positive that this particular block has piston cooling jets or not??? because if it doesn't, your low oil pressure issue must be bearing clearance related. I think the combine oil pan and dual oil pump will fit on a 220, but you are not clear WHICH 426 combine engine it is. Clearance to the oil pan to front axle frame is of concern. Your engine is using the 210/220/D21 front engine plate which is thinner than a later model tractor or combine engine plate, which could complicate oil pan hole alignment to the timing cover. You need to determine if your front cover will work for the oil pump drive gear. You'd better make a lot of measurements and take pictures when you go to buy these parts and LOOK at the engine they came out of. |
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2021 at 2:33pm
   
|
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2021 at 2:35pm
 
|
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2021 at 2:43pm
| So i was able to get back to my tractor today. i have taken some pictures. On the very last pic you can see with a mirror that there is one hole drilled in the front main webbing of every cylinder. That's all there is. I also took pics of main bearings. The old ones that i took out went to the full width of the main bearing cap. I was told that this was all you can get now. also you can see not much clearance for the gear to drive the pump. So can you tell me please what i have here and how to proceed with this. I appreciate your time Bill. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2021 at 7:15pm
| You have two choices: #1. find a salvage 210 or 220 that has the crankshaft driven oil pump and buy the pump, lines, oil pan and probably the timing cover. The combine engine parts may work, but I think the timing cover gear clearance will cause you problems and your old thin front plate will cause issues with the front oil pan bolts. #2. Pull the crankshaft out of the block and drive a small steel ball in each piston cooling jet to plug them. If you could find a set of old style main bearings, that would work too, but I don't think that will happen. |
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2021 at 7:22pm
| Thanks I appreciate your help. Bill. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2021 at 11:24pm
| Wouldn't the front cover and oil pan off a 7000 426 work on a 3500 (220) and clear the axle? That way the pump would fit. The mount holes are already there in the block. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2021 at 6:02am
| The older generation 210/220- D21 engine has a couple of things going on. The front plate of the engine is 3/16" thick and all the 7000 series are 3/8" thick. Now, these numbers are from my memory, but it moves the front row of pan bolts forward about 1/2 hole or so. The oil pan is longer/shorter as a result. The 7000 series timing cover may not exactly be the shape of the 210-220 front plate, especially around the hydraulic pump drive and maybe the injection pump area too. Not saying it won't or can't, just know that it might be different. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2021 at 6:21am
| Ah Hah! |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2021 at 7:16am
|
If he had the old main bearings, he could roll in his old uppers, since they usually don't wear. While going to a crank drive oil pump is a better idea, it's kind of a pain on the 21 like Dr is mentioning. The 210/220/combine front timing cover is notched where the oil pump gear goes up to meet the crank gear. Plus the row of bolts is farther forward. I have located the oil pumps, pickups, and tubes on ebay from military surplus. Nothing was cheap though! Looks like his block has the oil pump bolt holes, so front cover and pan would need dealt with. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: pirlbeck
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2021 at 7:31am
| The engine is already out of the tractor, why not just pull the crank and plug the piston cooling jet holes and be done with it. When the timing cover is off, make sure the timing gear lube orifice plug is in the front of the block. Also, I thought I read that he had a rear main seal leak too that needed addressed, so the flywheel end needs to come apart anyway too. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2021 at 8:29am
|
Pulling the crank involves pulling the front cover AND front plate, which means camshaft removal! Easy enough to roll his old uppers back in if he still has them. We really haven't determined if this is indeed his issue either have we? If a block plug was left out, it wouldn't have any oil pressure, as mentioned above. On my puller, I cut the front plate across the bottom, so I could pull crank a little easier. Probably sacrificed some strength, but it's a puller! ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2021 at 9:59pm
|
What 3500 had piston cooling? The 6.7 426 on the 7050 had PC the 7030 did not. That was 72...ish... ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2021 at 6:24am
| I had a new replacement short block 30+ yrs ago that had the piston cooling jets on it. It was a Generation one block too. Also in a 220. It was a parts sale to an independent repair shop. I just can't remember what he wound up doing and he's no longer in business. All the Mark 2 blocks had it, except the 7030, which in hindsight was a bad idea on A-C's part. ** Ed, I pulled a crank out of an N-6 engine one time without having to remove the front plate. It took Mike an I both to position the crank throws just right with all the pistons shoved up to their tops and it just barely came by the plate. Now, that was the thicker/newer plate made for an early 80's combine engine, so maybe there was more room to do that. |
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2021 at 7:46am
| I have one more question, like i said there is no serial plate in this block. if i was to get one made what should be put on it? |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2021 at 2:26pm
| ....just put "REPLACEMENT"....it's not a 3500 or a 3750...it's a combination that covers both bases... I wouldn't waste my time. Pretty sure my 220 has a replacement block only because it says MOD 3500 but no serial #. Has crank drive pump but is also a 70 model. No idea of history. Had around 3000hrs on a working tach. Why would it need fixed with that few hrs? |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2021 at 6:00pm
|
So not to derail this topic, but it still applies. Are the engines with big pin rods not drilled in the main saddle for the cooling passage? The block in my puller was a very late model block(4036952) that originally had big pin rods, and I never remember seeing any oil holes directed at the bottom of the pistons. Those used the rifled rod. I am using heat treated small pin rods. I have a couple of other blocks, one has the holes, it came out of a piece of construction equipment, tag does say 670T, 4035893, the other is same casting number, but still assembled so can't see inside, was non intercooled out of a uni. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2021 at 6:05pm
| Pretty sure they are drilled and because the non-piston cooling upper main shells got discontinued 30 yrs ago, AC or DA or AGCO printed a bulletin telling you to plug those holes with a steel ball of a certain P/N. So, they made it impossible to do an in-frame quicky, unless you left the old upper shells in place. It was a bad idea to discontinue those old style upper shells. |
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2021 at 9:32pm
| Is the part number for the old upper bearings you guys speak of different then the new ones. Just curious |
Posted By: Agwilly
Date Posted: 01 May 2021 at 4:04pm
| Hello I got my tractor back together with a crank drive oil pump. Still having low oil pressure issues. Could someone please give me the part number on the ball bearings to plug the oil jets in the block please? Thanks Bill. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 01 May 2021 at 4:26pm
| Hold on. You have a crankshaft driven oil pump from what? what engine? That pump has more volume than the old oil pump. You shouldn't need to plug the piston cooling jets. There must be bearing clearance issues. What is the oil pressure when hot?? 35 to 55 psi at full throttle is spec. What did the dry main bearings plasti-gauge at ?? You didn't have oil pressure issues until you replaced main and rod bearings, correct ?? |
Posted By: DanWi
Date Posted: 01 May 2021 at 5:40pm
| Are you getting the oil pressure directly from a gauge screwed into the block? A gauge on the dash either mechanical or electric could read low. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 01 May 2021 at 6:40pm
| 210 and late 220 oil pumps are the exact same (74028052) pump that an early 7030 and 7050 had. The 7050 had piston cooling and a third oil filter and they never ever had oil pressure issues. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 02 May 2021 at 12:21am
| When we jetted my crank drive pump 220,I had to screw the pressure regulator in a BUNCH to get up to 50psi hot 30wt oil at full throttle. It's back near the oil filters. I think early style was jam nut on slotted bolt...mine has what looks like hex plug with no lock...just screws in. Try this first! |