![]() |
This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity. | |||||
| The Forum | Parts and Services | Unofficial Allis Store | Tractor Shows | Serial Numbers | History | |
Allis 7020 Cold Start Issue/Engine Health? |
Post Reply
|
| Author | |
nowaktj
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 Location: Elk River, MN Points: 739 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Topic: Allis 7020 Cold Start Issue/Engine Health?Posted: Yesterday at 8:02am |
|
I could use some advice on my 7020. My issue is that it refuses to start cold
(tested in 50F shop). Background is that
this tractor has an engine transplanted out of M2 combine that I moved the
intercooler parts over from the 7020 engine.
·
The injection pump and injectors were rebuilt within
the last 90 days. ·
In swapping over the hardware from the original
engine, I did pull the cam to replace the front plate…and therefore I reset the
tappets. ·
The starter and batteries seem to spin the
engine fast enough. ·
In trying to start it cold, I tried it at ¼ throttle
and full throttle. Neither yielded success. ·
Using the glow plug for 60 seconds as a starting
aid does not help. The intake housing
does get warm during its’ use, so I think the glow plug is working. ·
If I plug it in and allow the block to get to
80F, it will start. ·
I measured compression with all injectors out
using cranking speed and a cold engine. The cylinders range 200 to 210 psi
across the 6 cylinders. o
This evenness leads me to believe I don’t have
one or two dead cylinders. ·
I measured compression after letting the tractor
get up to a running temperature of 140F.
I then pulled #6 injector, installed compression tester and then
restarted it running at idle (750-800 rpm).
This yielded a compression of 350 psi. o
This above test matches what I found in a 185
Service Manual…it states under similar circumstances, a healthy psi is 500. My 7020 Service Manual offers no criteria for
a compression test. I noted from the
parts book that the piston from a 185 to a 7020 is a different part number so I
don’t know if I can use the 185 spec. ·
When running, the engine has near zero blow by
out of the valve cover. This makes me
believe the engine isn’t shot. Also, I
can run it down the road in high gear and it seems to have plenty of
power. I wish I had access to a dyno to
measure actual horsepower. What are people’s thoughts on what my issue is? Has anyone ran a compression test on a healthy 649/301 turbocharged engine?
Edited by nowaktj - Yesterday at 10:38am |
|
|
D19D, D17D, WD, WC, Snobee, #83 Plow, SC Blade, 14' disk, 400 series planter, B , Terra Tiger, M Dozer w/Baker Blade, TL-12, 42S Grader, G
|
|
![]() |
|
| Sponsored Links | |
![]() |
|
Mikez
Orange Level Access
Joined: 16 Jan 2013 Location: Usa Points: 8931 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Yesterday at 8:28am |
|
Who put injection pump in. Maybe not timed correctly.
|
|
![]() |
|
nowaktj
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 Location: Elk River, MN Points: 739 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Yesterday at 8:34am |
|
Forgot to add detail about timing. I have double checked and the lines match up perfectly for 18 degrees BTDC. The dampener mark could be off, so I moved the pump gear back 1 tooth and forward 1 tooth and it did not run as well.
|
|
|
D19D, D17D, WD, WC, Snobee, #83 Plow, SC Blade, 14' disk, 400 series planter, B , Terra Tiger, M Dozer w/Baker Blade, TL-12, 42S Grader, G
|
|
![]() |
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 22858 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Yesterday at 1:46pm |
|
So, how did it start cold when in a 50 degree F shop before you had injectors and injection pump gone thru ???? Set your pump timing at 16 degrees BTDC and leave it there. Cranking compression with a known good compression tester should be over 300 PSI with all injectors removed. Running on one cylinder at 700 RPM should yield you 400 psi or a little better. So, you either have a real problem or you have a compression tester that isn't giving you correct numbers. What brand starter does it have?? A LUCAS ?? they are known for slow cranking speed, regardless of what you think of the cranking speed. I assume this engine has the DM-4 style injection pump?? and that would have 15 to 1 compression pistons. LEAVE THROTTLE AT A DEAD IDLE TO START.
Edited by DrAllis - Yesterday at 1:54pm |
|
![]() |
|
injpumpEd
Orange Level Access
Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 5208 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Yesterday at 2:30pm |
|
200 psi is not enough to start a cold diesel engine. I always do compression tests with starter, not per Ac procedure of it running on the other 5 cylinders. You problem starting is at cranking speed, so that is the speed you need to check it as you did, and it proved to be a problem. Faster cranking speed will definitely raise the cranking compression pressure. I don't feel you have an engine problem as much as you have a slow cranking problem. Looks like a great application for an ether start and a gear reduction starter lol!
|
|
|
210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
|
|
![]() |
|
darrel in ND
Orange Level
Joined: 22 Nov 2009 Location: Hebron, ND Points: 8782 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 12 hours 21 minutes ago at 5:11am |
|
One of my 200's had similar starting issues
We up-graded it to a gear reduction starter, put in new batteries, and made new 2/0 battery cables for it. Starts pretty darn good now. Darrel |
|
![]() |
|
tbran
Orange Level
Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Paris Tn Points: 3668 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 7 hours 36 minutes ago at 9:56am |
|
Question: Does it 'smoke' when turning over ? Also Docs question about BEFORE the repair starting status is necessary to diagnosis. Ed's question of compression pressure at CRANKING SPEED with starter. Also when it does start it runs good ?
If it emits grey smoke and will not start either the timing is issue or it has low compression. Usually the blacker the smoke the more likely a timing issue. IF it does not smoke at cranking speed - the injectors were set too high for a worn pump head. my 2 cents
|
|
|
When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
|
|
![]() |
|
Kcgrain
Orange Level
Joined: 24 Sep 2009 Location: Wisconsin Points: 813 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 7 hours 9 minutes ago at 10:23am |
|
does smoke start coming out of the stack as soon as you start cranking? If no smoke, there's no fuel, no fuel means its leaking down someplace
|
|
![]() |
|
nowaktj
Orange Level
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 Location: Elk River, MN Points: 739 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 5 minutes ago at 5:27pm |
|
Thanks to each of you for the input! ·
How did it start cold when in a 50-degree F shop
before you had injectors and injection pump gone thru? o
It started just as poorly. In addition, if I increased throttle it took
10-15 seconds to increase and after the shutoff was pulled, it would take 10
minutes before it would start again. It
acted like the shutoff was stuck off and eventually freed itself to allow fuel
flow again. o
More background…the fuel had gone skunky. Therefore, I had the injectors and pump
overhauled. Also, I spent endless hours
pulling the tank to clean it, replaced hoses, etc o
NOTE: THE PUMP I AM USING IS FROM THE ORIGINAL
7020 ENGINE WHILE THE INJECTORS ARE FROM THE M2 ENGINE. o
Here is the note from the diesel shop from their
teardown: We checked the injectors,
they were between 3500-3700 PSI and sticky, We dismantled and cleaned them, all
but 2 worked good when we adjusted them.
We had to order 2 new nozzle valves from Denver. The injection pump was ·
Set your pump timing at 16 degrees BTDC and
leave it there. o
I have changed this from 18 BTDC to 16. It acts approximately the same. ·
Cranking compression with a known good
compression tester should be over 300 PSI with all injectors removed. Running
on one cylinder at 700 RPM should yield you 400 psi or a little better.
So, you either have a real problem or you have a compression tester that isn't
giving you correct numbers. o
My compression tester is from Vevor (cheap I
know but what I can afford as this is a hobby). ·
What brand starter does it have? o
I do have the gear reduction starter installed
already (Probably Chinese). It looks
like this one: Gear
Reduction Starter fits Allis Chalmers models 180-7020 tractors | eBay I got it from Steve Fisher near New Ulm, MN o
When trying to start it, I put my Schumacher Charger
on full boost and seems to me that it spins the engine well. Having said that, my batteries are probably
over 5 years old. o
My battery cables are all upsized and grounds
have been checked. o
This engine came out of a combine and all it had
was either start. I changed it to the 7020-glow
plug preheater but maybe I should pull that and put either start on it. ·
I’ve attached a picture of the injection pump
below. ·
Does it 'smoke' when turning over? o
Yes, I am getting white smoke as it tries to
start. And I can hear it trying to fire
here and there. ·
When it does start, does it run well? o
Yes, it seems to run good once running. It has pretty clean exhaust after 5 mins or
so. There is no problem moving the
tractor in high gear down the road.
|
|
|
D19D, D17D, WD, WC, Snobee, #83 Plow, SC Blade, 14' disk, 400 series planter, B , Terra Tiger, M Dozer w/Baker Blade, TL-12, 42S Grader, G
|
|
![]() |
|
Post Reply
|
|
|
Tweet
|
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |