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Rod bearing question |
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Hunt4Allis ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Mar 2018 Location: Ohio Points: 1172 |
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I'm wondering why no manufacturer has come out with a replacement rod/rod bearing for older worn crankshafts ( spun bearing or just worn smaller crankshaft) so you wouldn't have to split a tractor to replace crankshaft when worn out? All I read about are once crankshaft/ bearing surfaces are worn then splitting tractor is only option to get tolerance back in check. I realize it would mean a lot more manufacturing but I would pay a premium to not have to split a tractor to replace crankshaft and many others I'm sure.
You would think if one could mic there crankshaft diameter s that then all you would need to do is match as closely as possible with bearings and no need to split machine replace crankshaft! I know this would not be a perfect fix but could give option to costly split. I realize why you do it the standard way but in our fast pace world I can't believe no manufacturer has done something like this? |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21723 |
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So what kind of bearing would you want made for a crankshaft journal that is worn egg-shaped/oval shaped (not round) ?? or even tapered...worn more on one end than the other. Crankshaft bearing tolerances must be held within a couple of thousands of an inch for successful service life.
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Hunt4Allis ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Mar 2018 Location: Ohio Points: 1172 |
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Ok, gotcha
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HudCo ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Location: Plymouth Utah Points: 3864 |
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would never last long enought to get out of the yard ,and not to mention all of that metal ready to grind somthing easle apart
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Hunt4Allis ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Mar 2018 Location: Ohio Points: 1172 |
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I guess my mind was on one caught early enough before it's wear pattern is terrible
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2456 |
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I'll bet "Hayes" could could come up with a solution as they have with fasteners:
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 87100 |
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Older motors like the B and C farm tractors had shimmed bearings.. Maybe .006 inch per side... So if you had a couple thousands wear, you could take out a shim or two to tighten them up..... Newer motors normally have no shims and they do make aftermarket bearings that are .010 , .020 oversize and you machine a worn crank so those will fit.... So if your talking .002 -3 wear i see your point... but at some point the wear is EGG SHAPED and your not doing yourself any favors by not pulling the crank.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Hunt4Allis ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Mar 2018 Location: Ohio Points: 1172 |
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Ok, so it may be possible to only need rod bearing if they sell undersized shims if not egg shaped. Or a knock sound could be a broken ring or something else...
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1963D17 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Jun 2021 Location: Alvord, Iowa Points: 90 |
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Allis offered .002 undersize bearings at one time. I installed a set in a WD45 20-25 years ago. IH still does for the 460 thru 706 gas and diesels. I sold a lot of those back in the day.
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Hunt4Allis ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Mar 2018 Location: Ohio Points: 1172 |
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Hmmm, ok so it may be worth looking into if I need or can utilize and undersized bearing on my G188D motor. She's a smoker and I bet at a minimum it needs a upper half overhaul kit, would cracking line loose on each cylinder for the injectors tell me if that cylinder is one making noise by stopping it from firing?( I'm trying to figure the theory of doing that one out!Thanks for the info
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WF owner ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 May 2013 Location: Bombay NY Points: 4979 |
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If it needs an "upper half overhaul kit" and rod bearings, why not do it right and rebuild the whole engine. I'm betting you would be a lot happier in the long run.
Every time I have seen a partial engine rebuild job, it has turned out to be an eventual nightmare.
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Les Kerf ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 1207 |
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As mentioned above, many older engines (not just AC) were designed to allow bearing adjustment using shims; about 20 years ago I did an in-frame freshen-up on a neighbor's Model M Farmall using 0.002" undersize rod bearings. It still runs fine.
I freshened up my 1941 John Deere Model A about 30 years ago; it has the poured babbitt rod bearings with shim adjustment. I forget how many shims I removed, but it wasn't over 0.003" or 0.004". I'm pretty sure my grandson will still be running it after I am long gone. Some years ago an old retired mechanic friend was cleaning out his shop as he was downsizing; he showed me some tapered shims for putting underneath rod bearing shells. He said he hadn't done that in many years though. I wish that I had asked him for them just as memorabilia. I have seen rods that someone filed the caps by hand to tighten up bearing clearances. The engines ran successfully for many years, but I still do not recommend it. |
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Hunt4Allis ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Mar 2018 Location: Ohio Points: 1172 |
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Everything I've researched says if rod bearing are bad the noise gets louder with rpm( mine doesn't get louder so I'm tempted to do a oil/ filter change, add some Lucas high milage oil stabilizer and see if it quiets down)
Edited by Hunt4Allis - 01 Mar 2022 at 9:01am |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21723 |
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What is a G188-D engine ??
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Hunt4Allis ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Mar 2018 Location: Ohio Points: 1172 |
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50 hp-4 cylinder diesel
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IBWD MIke ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 08 Apr 2012 Location: Newton Ia. Points: 4034 |
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 87100 |
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We have a CASE 530 backhoe with a 159 gas.......... but i think the G188 was the diesel option.
Edited by steve(ill) - 01 Mar 2022 at 9:39am |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21723 |
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Well then, a diesel engine that you want to try and patch up a rod bearing ?? That is a BAD idea. Deezel engines have twice the compression as any gas engine and have more pound to them when they fire. You've got a knock you say ?? Does the exhaust emit any white puffing smoke ?? A really bad (beyond fixing) rod bearing will lower the compression on ONE cylinder and can make it knock and partially miss-fire. The piston could also be hitting the cylinder head if bad enough. I saw a D-19 turbo-deezel that bad once and it only took a new crankshaft and connecting rod to fix it.
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Hunt4Allis ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Mar 2018 Location: Ohio Points: 1172 |
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I'm not trying to patch anything I'm looking at what options are available if possible depending on what it looks like when I take it apart. It's how I normally approach things that I don't know is to obtain some information first and this place is normally a great resource.
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 87100 |
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Hunt, i think the moral to the story is that a knock , can be a rod bearing, can be a wrist pin, can be a cracked piston... or who knows... You really cant tell until you do a Complete inspection......... If you doing it in frame, and pulling the head and piston / rods out ... you can leave the crank in the tractor "until" you determine the extent of damage and if the crank journals are round or not..... at this point, you just dont know..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Hunt4Allis ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Mar 2018 Location: Ohio Points: 1172 |
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Right, I've also heard it could be a injector not firing/ or properly and causing an off sound( this is my only old diesel so it could be something else also I guess being I'm not used to hearing what one sounds like...)
It does smoke white a bit but not terrible seing how it's a 1972 that probably at a minimum needs new piston rings/ sleeves if never been done! Edited by Hunt4Allis - 01 Mar 2022 at 1:00pm |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21723 |
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You haven't answered the question about the exhaust puffing any smoke, white or black. Your engine is not a direct injection engine. It is the old LaNova system like Buda and Oliver used. They do not "knock" from cylinder firing. They are smooooth. So, if you have a knock, I'd bet it was mechanical.
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orangereborn ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: NW WI Points: 1469 |
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There was such a device/tool...Removed the starter and put an electric motor in it's place. Little hand held belt sander and follow the journal. Generally they came right to your location and did the job...At the curb of your home...Where-ever there was electricity...Middle 1960's he got a little generator. I think it was a Honda...He did tractors/all types vehicles...And yes, some of them were orange...Some were a complete success and some maybe made it to the resale lot...But that's the way it was then...
In the mid 1960's I was on my way to Mason City IA to get a load of AC parts and whatever and was to tow a combine (72?)back to SE MN. Just at the MN/IA border the 1951 IHC truck started to knock. I pulled into a little park on the north edge of Chester IA and dropped the oil pan and found a bad rod bearing...Walked into Chester and called the shop...(from the post office I think)...Decided that the engine shop would come out repair it. Did not have to take it into town as he now had a generator...He came 70 miles did the grind, Right there in the park...I put it back together, and finished the trip...Worked Good...In the winter slow months I rebuilt the motor...I recall Lyle Joy the Allis "block man" was at the dealership at the time and stopped by as he was also heading to Mason City...I go thru there often and think of the event...Dale
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Hunt4Allis ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Mar 2018 Location: Ohio Points: 1172 |
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Wow, thanks for the story! Gives hope to enginuity😜
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Utopia Points: 2456 |
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Yup. One such apparatus was marketed by "Storm Engineering", (later Storm-Vulcan). I've not seen one in years but a guy with some time could make effective repairs to get a job done. Don't think I'd ever seen one used but have seen the kit and read the literature in the case briefly as was intrigued by the process.
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Hunt4Allis ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 13 Mar 2018 Location: Ohio Points: 1172 |
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Ok sooooo, pulled drain plug today and green anti- freeze( probably about a quart) came out first then oil so I'm guessing I've got a blown head gasket to start with... Probably the cause of my white smoke. One positive about the short time I was able to spend after work before dark was one of my worries was breaking free my lug nuts on all 4 rims, which had me worried a bit since these tires look original and probably never been off but thankfully looks like some never seize was on threads! It will be a long process but it was at the right price and I'm not in any hurry to get projects done I have planned so I'll need some more time to explore and fix her up!
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21723 |
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No familiar with that little 4 banger, but all the larger Case engines were wet sleeves.
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 87100 |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21723 |
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Bingo!! So proper diagnosis would be pull the oil pan and pressurize the cooling system and determine EXACTLY where the coolant is coming from.
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 87100 |
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YEP... just like ALLIS... could be liner o-rings , could be freeze plug, could be gasket.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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