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Bill in NELA 
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 Topic: D17 Throttle / governor problem
Posted: 22 Jun 2020 at 4:28pm |
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I obtained a D17 couple of years ago and have been following this forum to gather information about it. The engine will go full throttle when the level is move about 1/3 of the way down. The governor will not engage when put under a load. Hoping some one can give me some insight as to what the problem might be. The tractor is in great shape and does a good job.
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MACK
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Posted: 22 Jun 2020 at 9:26pm |
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With engine off, open throttle wide open, unhook gov. rod ahead of carb. at gov. shaft. Shorten rod from gov to carb by bending it down until it just goes back in gov linkage. MACK
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Bill in NELA
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Posted: 22 Jun 2020 at 9:38pm |
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Thanks, I have already adjusted it once. Will recheck that in the AM.
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Brian G. NY
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Posted: 23 Jun 2020 at 7:56am |
When the weights "blew" in the governor on my D-17 a few years ago the engine went wide open. After that, any time the throttle lever was moved off idle it would go wide open. I was able to get it home (about a mile) by running it at idle. Given what I now know, I would not have run the engine at all after the governor blew. Let's hope your problem is something less.
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Bill in NELA
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Posted: 23 Jun 2020 at 11:50am |
I checked the governor to carburetor linkage and it was okay. Checking further, I believe the spring in the governor has been replaced with a spring that is too strong. The weights in the governor were in good shape. From an idle, a small increase to the throttle level at the governor will have big increase in the engine RPM. It is like it was hooked up direct. Turning the high idle adjustment has no effect.
I am going to try to find the correct spring and see if it corrects the problem.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 23 Jun 2020 at 11:59am |
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On the carburetor side, there isn't any springs connected to the governor is there?? I have seen choke springs connected where they shouldn't be.
The correct governor spring has a plunger/slug inside of it.
Edited by DrAllis - 23 Jun 2020 at 12:01pm
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Bill in NELA
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Posted: 23 Jun 2020 at 6:52pm |
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There is no spring on the carburetor. The inside of the governor looks fine, weights move freely, thrust carrier slides no binding, thrust bearing in good shape. The spring has the plunger. I found on binding. Nothing looks wrong.
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MACK
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Posted: 23 Jun 2020 at 9:45pm |
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If all checks out, I would check for badly worn throttle shaft and carb. MAck
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DrAllis
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Posted: 24 Jun 2020 at 8:29am |
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Although rare, I have seen a couple of governor arms where the tapered pin thru the fork was loose, causing the governor synch to always be off. Last one I saw got a quick tack weld in chassis on the end of the shaft to the fork to make things stay tight. Driving the tapered pin in deeper didn't solve the issue, but the welder did.
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Bill in NELA
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Posted: 24 Jun 2020 at 7:27pm |
Thanks for the tips and suggestions.
How big a job is it to replace the bushing in the cross shaft? Does the front end, radiator, etc have to be removed? It is a stage III.
The tractor is in good shape, runs good, don't use oil and looks like it has been well cared for. I like to have my old tractors restored to perform as they did when they were new.
Bill
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MACK
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Posted: 24 Jun 2020 at 9:37pm |
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After 60 years of mechanic work, have never replaced bushings or saw them loose. MACK
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Bill in NELA
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Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 12:43pm |
Dr Allis Could it be that the pin in the fork lever is broken and allowed the fork to rotate on the cross shaft?
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DrAllis
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Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 1:03pm |
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Engine off. Throttle wide open. Disconnect the carb link rod from the vertical governor arm behind the generator. The length of the link rod should be so it matches up with the hole in the vertical gov arm. While the link rod is disconnected, grab the vertical gover arm and try to move it forward (against the spring) and then rearwards. It should not change. If it does, there's something wrong with the fork pin inside the governor.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 1:09pm |
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A good closeup picture or three of the governor arm and carburetor connection would be nice. I have seen some awful cobbed up governors over the years.
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AllisD17AndyOk
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Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 2:48pm |
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When I brought my D17 home, I found that the throttle could not be pulled half way down without over revving the engine and the governor would not work right. Took me and my good buddy 3 or 4 hours to figure it out. The tractor had an aftermarket Zenith carb on it, and the lever attached to the carb throttle shaft had an adjustable link (I'm guessing to fit various applications) and the screw was loose so the carb butterfly wasn't matching what the governor wanted, adjusted and tightened, then the Throttle and governor linked properly to the carb, no problems since. Just an idea...Andy
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Bill in NELA
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Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 6:11pm |
Engine off, throttle wide open and carb link rod disconnected I can move the rod rearward (toward the front of the tractor). With the governor rod half way, it will move both forward and rearward. At idle the rod can be moved forward (toward the rear of the tractor). There is no slack where the rod goes into the cross over tube. The carb link rod is adjusted right. Sorry, I can't send pictures. The governor is not cobbed up. Everything looks clean and good. Everything moves with out binding.
The carb does have the adjustable lever on the throttle shaft. It is tight and works as it should.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 01 Jul 2020 at 6:43pm |
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I thought at idle you shouldn't be able to move rod...would have to check mine to say for sure
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 7:30pm |
What's the possibility that the governor has been replaced by one say... from a Gleaner combine, or an industrial engine (like a generator)?
The tractor governor is a 'variable' speed unit... the other type is a 'fixed' speed governor, where the flyweight, leverage, and spring ratios are intended to provide proper gain and sag for operation at a set speed, with a narrow range ('tight governance').
For example: Tractor governor will be active and controls speed from any setpoint from about 800rpm up to 1850 or so. A generator will be active and controlling speed of a 4-pole generator from 1765rpm to 1825...
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 9:32pm |
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I ran Gleaner E weights in my 45 for years with no real problem. It was jumpy and after the wife got to running the bush hog with it I decided to go back to original. she wasn't good at getting it settled down. Feared damaged parts.LOL!
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DrAllis
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Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 9:40pm |
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Engine off. Throttle wide open. Carb link rod disconnected at the vertical governor arm behind the generator. Grab the vertical arm and try to move the top of it forward and then rearwards. It should always return to the same exact place when you let go of it. If it is loose in the fork it will be sloppy and change the return point.
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Bill in NELA
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 11:25am |
I am not a mechanic by trade. I did grow up on a farm with green and red tractors in the 1950's. About 20 years ago, I started to collect some of those tractors and restore/repair them. This involved engine overhaul, transmission, started, generator, clutch, etc. Mainly working on my own equipment, with some outside work and give advice to others about their tractors. This said to say I am not an expert or novice.
When the tractor was purchased, the previous owner said that the throttle return spring was broken. I knew nothing about the working of an Allis Chalmers and did not know that it did not have a throttle return spring. He was a collector of antique tractors and did not know the history of this tractor. After getting the tractor home and got manuels, I checked the carb to gov arm and found it needed adjustment. After adjusting it improved from the 2nd groove to the 3d groove before it over rev.
Let me set this up again. With the tractor at idle, moving the throttle down to the third groove, the engine will go over tack. At that time, the control lever at the governor is in the right position. The forked lever is all the way back against the thrust bearing. This tells me that there is 2 possible answer to the problem. First the spring/plunger is to long or the forked lever has been reposition on the cross over shaft (very unlikely since it is pined and looks to be in the right position). The spring has 14 coils. If someone can tell if this correct, it would be of great help.
As far as the governor being changed out to Gleaner, I don't know. Everything in the governor looks good and matches what is in the manuals. As far as the weights, they don't even come into play. Above idle, the engine is running with the governor pegged out. The high idle adjust screw on top of the governor cover is all the way in but the control lever never gets up that high. It could be possible that the weights may not be heavy enough to push the thrust carrier out against the forked lever.
What should I do? Replace the weights first to see if that solves the problem.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 12:54pm |
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Well,if everything is correct, it can't do as you say so something is off. I can't see from hear what you have so not able to advise. Have you confirmed the fork is fixed to the shaft? While holding one you can't move the other? I don't think you can install fork backwards. Is thrust brg facing right way and engaged in weights? Is it all there? The carrier and the brg? If the pin comes out of the fork or lever that pulls the spring,it will only idle not race. Stretching the spring is what increases the speed. The gov will always be trying to slow the engine. Just unhook the helper spring on the throttle linkage to the gov and see how well it will hold high rpm. Is the throttle shaft in upside down in the carb? Replaceing weights won't change anything unless they are broken. The keepers like to fly off into eternity so be warned.
Edited by SteveM C/IL - 03 Jul 2020 at 12:57pm
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Bill in NELA
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 1:31pm |
The fork is fixed to the shaft and holding one you can't move the other. With guts of gov out, spinning the gear the weights come out and push carrier and thrust bearing out. Everything is there. The gov is unable to overcome the spring in the gov to slow the engine down.
What effect would there be if the weights had been replaced with lighter weights?
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AllisD17AndyOk
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 3:13pm |
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As I mentioned earlier, my D17 had the exact symptoms your tractor has, I cured mine by repositioning the lever on the carb throttle shaft and tightening the lock down screw. You said yours is tight and functioning. I still wonder if someone loosened it before and repositioned it before retighten the screw so the butterfly is in the wrong opening position, overriding the governor. Just my thoughts, Andy
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DrAllis
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 3:23pm |
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That most likely isn't the problem. The factory OEM throttle shaft lever on the carb is fixed and cannot change unless it is damaged. It is NOT adjustable like an aftermarket carb might be. Too bad the problem tractor isn't closer. It would take me or Mack about 5 minutes or less to fix it or figure out what needs to be ordered to fix it.
The "throttle return spring" the previous owner talked about doesn't exist. There are TWO springs involved with the governor/throttle. The actual governor/speed spring with plunger inside the governor and the counterbalance spring under the fuel tank that aids in helping reduce the effort required to pull the hand throttle down to the wide open position. It can be gone and have no affect on anything other than how hard the throttle lever pulls.
Edited by DrAllis - 03 Jul 2020 at 3:27pm
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AllisD17AndyOk
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 3:24pm |
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DrAllis or Mack, engine off, throttle wide open, when you look thru the air intake, where should the butterfly be, wide open? I've never looked at mine, my friend reset it and the idle and top speed are now correct, and the governor works just fine. I don't think it should be wide open, you have to have room for the governors when spinning to open further??? Thanks, Andy
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DrAllis
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 3:27pm |
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It better be wide open. That's the choke, not the throttle.
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AllisD17AndyOk
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 3:28pm |
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DrAllis, didn't see your reply you just posted, as mentioned, my friend said my carb was aftermarket, it is not set for one position, you can rotate it anywhere when the lockdown screw it loosened. Has Bill determined his is factory? Andy
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DrAllis
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 3:29pm |
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The governor carrier must be installed correctly. Ball bearing is FORWARD.
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AllisD17AndyOk
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Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 3:29pm |
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DrAllis, and That's why I had my friend helping me debug my problem...Thanks, Andy
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