This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity.
The Forum Parts and Services Unofficial Allis Store Tractor Shows Serial Numbers History
Forum Home Forum Home > Allis Chalmers > Farm Equipment
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Head Gasket O-rings? Required?

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
bobforapples View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level


Joined: 18 Jan 2018
Location: Orangeville OH
Points: 21
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bobforapples Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Head Gasket O-rings? Required?
    Posted: 11 May 2018 at 5:48pm
OYE!

Well, working on my Allis C rebuild.

I pressure tested the cooling system today after installing new sleeves and gaskets. To my delight I found a substantial leak bewteen the block and head on the rear of the engine.

The headgasket is new and the head and block are flat. Here's just a wild shot in the dark please help if you can!!!

The engine gasket kit came with 4 o-rings that I never found a use for. At one time I thought I should install them in the water passages between the head and block... I didn't remember the old head gasket having o-rings so I thought I must have been wrong and never found a use for em.


So, Am I supposed to install these 4 o-rings between the head and block?
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
DrAllis View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 21541
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 6:29pm
Perfectly dry head gaskets on 70 year old blocks and heads aren't a good idea. That head gasket needed to be coated/painted with something on both sides.  I'm assuming the four O-rings you have are for the valve cover nuts/washers.
Back to Top
bobforapples View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level


Joined: 18 Jan 2018
Location: Orangeville OH
Points: 21
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bobforapples Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 6:36pm
Good call on the O-rings for the valve cover.

I cant believe the dry gasket is the culprit, but maybe I learned something today.

Back to Top
Dick L View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Edon Ohio
Points: 5087
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 8:29pm
Did you warm up the tractor and re torque it to spec afterward? I have never used any thing on a fiber gasket and never had a leak on these little engines. I would guess that dirty holes in the block could be the problem or something along that line. Most all of those blocks I have cleaned had crap in the threaded holes that came up when I run a tap in when it came out.
Back to Top
HoughMade View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 22 Sep 2017
Location: Valparaiso, IN
Points: 706
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HoughMade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 8:54pm
I used copper gasket sealer spray on both sides of the head gasket on my B. That and torquing the head in 5 increments, then retorquing after it had warmed up and cooled- no leaks...but it could be luck of the draw,

Edited by HoughMade - 11 May 2018 at 8:55pm
1951 B
Back to Top
DrAllis View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 21541
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 10:38pm
When I was in business, I had three things I would fire an employee for. Never had to do it because they always complied. Always run a thread tap down thru each head bolt hole and blow them out and then bench wire brush off the head bolt threads clean and use light grease on the threads for lube. Clean, clean, clean. You can't do a good job of torqueing a head bolt if the threads are dirty, dry and rusty. We never worked on B's and C's but I can assure you the head gasket would have been painted with something on BOTH sides.
Back to Top
bobforapples View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level


Joined: 18 Jan 2018
Location: Orangeville OH
Points: 21
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bobforapples Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2018 at 8:53am
Thanks for the advice everyone.

I'm going to remove the head and run a tap through the holes, wire wheel the bolts, coat a new head gasket on both sides and try again.




Back to Top
Gatz in NE View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Lincoln, NE
Points: 1043
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatz in NE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2018 at 8:58am
Might try Permatex Hi-Tack spray.  Give it time to get tacky before assembly.
We used it alot on car & tractor engines and found it very suitable for Oliver Diesels when nothing else would hold.
Back to Top
bigal121892 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 05 Jan 2010
Location: Nebraska
Points: 809
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigal121892 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2018 at 9:16am
On a gas engine, I would always spray paint both sides of the head gasket with aluminum paint, never had a head gasket leak.
Back to Top
john(MI) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: SE MI
Points: 9262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john(MI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2018 at 9:33am
Did you have the manifold on the engine?  One or more of the studs may go thru to the water jacket.
D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
Back to Top
Fred in Pa View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Hanover Pa.
Points: 9210
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred in Pa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2018 at 11:09am
 
 
When u say head and block are flat .Where they machined and sleeve height set .
He who dies with the most toys is,
nonetheless ,still dead.
If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED.
Back to Top
bobforapples View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level


Joined: 18 Jan 2018
Location: Orangeville OH
Points: 21
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bobforapples Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2018 at 2:32pm
head and case checked for flatness, and also checked once the sleeves were it.

-Good point about the exhaust studs. I don't know if they are blind holes to the jacket, bet the pressure leak was form the head gasket.

Autopsy tomorrow.
Back to Top
B26240 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 21 Nov 2009
Location: mn
Points: 3865
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B26240 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2018 at 3:31pm
Like bigal I also use aluminium paint on both sides.  I once worked on a tractor that someone had prior to me worked on and used some sticky stuff on the gasket, I had tractor  lifted off the ground with the shop hoist and useing wedges on the corners finally got the head off.
Back to Top
DiyDave View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Gambrills, MD
Points: 53587
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2018 at 5:57pm
shellac also works good as a sealer, too...Wink
Back to Top
LeonR2013 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jan 2013
Location: Fulton, Mo
Points: 3500
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LeonR2013 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2018 at 6:50pm
A product called Flo-ex is the best stuff to use if you are having a problem getting a head gasket to hold. Bar none.
Back to Top
bobforapples View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level


Joined: 18 Jan 2018
Location: Orangeville OH
Points: 21
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bobforapples Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2018 at 7:59am

I hope this post will help someone in the future!


The head gasket included in my gasket kit was not labeled for Top/Bottom/Front/Back etc.

I initially picked the orientation that matched the holes as close as possible. The water pump was not on the block at the time. Later when I installed the water pump I noticed that some of the headgasket was overlapping the block and was crushed by the water pump. I chalked that to poor quality and standards by the gasket company. (clearly this was not the case).

I installed the head gasket backwards. Don't be like me! When you install a new gasket make sure the front of the gasket is flush with the engine block and not sticking out. The water passage on the rear of the head will not seal if the gasket is backwards!!!!

Time to order a replacement gasket and try again.



Back to Top
WF owner View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
Points: 4934
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2018 at 9:01am
We've all done something similar. At least you didn't put a clutch plate in backwards and have to split the tractor again. Don't ask who would do something that dumb!!!
Back to Top
Dick L View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Edon Ohio
Points: 5087
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dick L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2018 at 9:07am
There ya go! I now remember doing the same years ago. When I went to put the water pump on I removed the head and turned the gasket around.
When I was pulling I used the same head gasket several times when trying out different grinds, valves, and porting. I reused the head gaskets until some of it picked up on the block or head. I never painted them with any thing. The idea back in the 1940's to paint the gaskets with aluminum paint was an anti seize idea to reuse the head gaskets at the time. I ground the valves on my 1952 Chevy and reused the head gasket that had been painted with aluminum paint. Back when people didn't have a government safety net people had to think about a possible slim financial future year. That is why your ancestors didn't throw many things away.   
Back to Top
Sugarmaker View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
Points: 8446
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2018 at 9:10am
Bob,
Thanks for your post! May save one of us some time money and frustration too!
Will be doing a pressure test on my WD45 today. Looking for leaks in all the right places!
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.


Help Support the
Unofficial Allis Forum