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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 6109 |
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Topic: Yo Electrician’s,,,,Posted: 06 Nov 2023 at 7:48am |
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 89298 |
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Posted: 22 Jul 2023 at 8:37am |
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Yes, that is POSSIBLE... but the two INDIVIDUAL BREAKERS have to be side by side to get TWO DIFFERENT POLES.... By "CODE" the two breakers SHOULD be tied together so when one trips, the other trips..... That way you can not shut off one breaker, and still have a HOT plug box............ but YES.. it will work... and YES.. you can use the BLUE wire as a ground if you have 12-4 wire available instead of 12-3 with ground..
(i was adding photos and updating my text when you posted above... I did initially think you said CUT the blue wire, not TAPE the blue wire white ) Edited by steve(ill) - 22 Jul 2023 at 8:41am |
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Lars(wi)
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Permian Basin Points: 8300 |
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Posted: 22 Jul 2023 at 8:22am |
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Didn’t say cut the blue. Break the tab between the ‘hots’ and break the tab between the neutral. Use the red and white wire for one circuit. Use the black(hot) and use the blue as a neutral(wrapped with white tape). A single pole 20amp breaker for each hot. Workable?
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 22 Jul 2023 at 8:01am |
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Lars, really not the best idea to use 12-4 and use the blue wire as a ground, but that WOULD WORK..... NO 12-3 ( red- black- white - without ground ) .... You should be using a ROMEX 12-3 WITH GROUND........ The BREAKER needs to be double breaker as we use on 240 volt systems.. That gives you TWO POLES of 120v..... Not the smaller "SPLIT" breaker that has two small breakers on one leg... that would be a NO- NO. ( of course you have to have the right BRAND name for your box)
Edited by steve(ill) - 22 Jul 2023 at 8:29am |
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 22 Jul 2023 at 7:36am |
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Otherwise, to avoid any confusion, run a XX-4 wire and break the tab on both sides, black and red on the ‘hot’ side, white and wrap the exposed blue with white tape and run as a neutral. Problem solved?
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 22 Jul 2023 at 7:26am |
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If the supply is moved to breakers of the same row in the breaker box, does that improve the issue?
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 24901 |
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Posted: 22 Jul 2023 at 5:56am |
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found this... shows and tells how they're done. it saves a lot of wire,quicker to install ,so cheaper. here in Canada the new code rules require 20Amp 'T' style receptacles in the kitchen,with/without GFCI is close/not so close to the sink. typical of the guv, turn something simple, into a complicated MESS (lookup arcfault breakers....)
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 89298 |
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Posted: 21 Jul 2023 at 8:46pm |
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Power Company does NOT have to follow the Electric Code... and MOST of their wires are OUTSIDE in the Atmosphere and Air COOLED.... Yea, the get warm or HOT, but no chance of fire... nothing up there to burn.
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Coke-in-MN
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 42109 |
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Posted: 21 Jul 2023 at 1:03pm |
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The fact one would have a exact load on both legs is the one thing but the idea each is fed from a different leg of transformer means they would balance and the neutral would carry 0 .
I have a 200 A single phase panel but it is 400 A of available power as each leg is 200 A Now granted I did the wiring on my house in 1970 and things have changed . 3 - #2-0 wires used to top of mast , and there the power company spliced onto them with what looks like #6 wires from transformer . Other house has a 60 A circuit / 2 #6 wires to mast and a reduced neutral of about #10 wire , but a ground rod driven below the sequence box and wire from neutral attached . That house was built around 1952 |
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 6109 |
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 9:26pm |
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It IS a three-phase panel, but Black/Red/Blue + White in USA is a traditional standard for 208/125Y service (aka 208v 4-wire). In 208/125Y, There is no 'wild' phase. There's three hots at 120 degree intervals, and one neutral in the center. From corner to corner, it measures 208. From centerpoint to any corner is 125v. The term 'high leg' or 'wild' phase is used to identify a corner-grounded delta service... which you might find in some older industrial or commercial buildings, but most places, where corner-grounded delta service is found, usually gets changed out rather quickly. Not to say it's not still found in places, but most electrical utilities want to get them pulled, as they can become a source of very complex and often dangerous problems when stuff fails.
Edited by DaveKamp - 19 Jul 2023 at 9:28pm |
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Tbone95
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Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 12337 |
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 6:40pm |
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Yep. I didn’t think of that. |
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 24901 |
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 4:31pm |
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re: The shared or common neutral practice is highly debated among the experts, ....meanwhile power from the pole has a common neutral...
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Lars(wi)
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Permian Basin Points: 8300 |
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 4:26pm |
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Isn’t this a ‘3 phase’ panel? 120 volt 120 volt ‘wild’ wire Neutral Edited by Lars(wi) - 19 Jul 2023 at 4:27pm |
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Coke-in-MN
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 42109 |
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 2:58pm |
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While the National Electric Code (NEC) still allows the practice of common or shared neutrals to occur, several other codes (including Federal Law) regulate this unfortunate practice. The shared or common neutral practice is highly debated among the experts, and is has been primarily left in the NEC as an accepted old-school practice. However, there is no disagreement among the experts, including advocates of the practice, that common or shared neutrals are NOT an ideal wiring technique. The advocates simply argue that while never ideal, sharing neutral conductors between phases can be done safely in certain circumstances.
In order to prevent an overcurrent situation, when common neutrals are used, the loads must be on different phases. If the same phase is used, the current on the neutral wire will be equal to load-1 plus load-2, possibly doubling the current and creating an unsafe over current situation. Remember, there is no circuit protection for the neutral wire. When overloaded, it can only heat until it burns open. The verification of “phase alignment” is critical in order to prevent overloads.
In order to avoid the danger of having breakers later re-arranged onto the same leg (which would create a potential overcurrent hazard), shared neutral circuits should be connected to multi-gang breakers rather than to separate single gang breakers. When an Edison circuit is discovered, it is recommended that electricians perform one of the following modifications:
Your company’s standard lockout/tagout procedures should be modified to include a requirement to verify zero energy on the neutral line. Additional dangers to electricians are posed by circuits with common neutrals that are controlled by switches, such as thermostats, that may close unexpectedly. Therefore, it is important to consider the potential presence of Edison circuits. Electricians working on sites with Edison Circuits should be trained, warning signs posted, and should consider the possibility that every circuit may be Edison circuits, and take the necessary safety precautions. |
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Life lesson: If you’re being chased by a lion, you’re on a horse, to the left of you is a giraffe and on the right is a unicorn, what do you do? You stop drinking and get off the carousel.
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 2:49pm |
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366.20 Conductors Connected in Parallel.![]() Click to Enlarge In the 2017 NEC, parallel conductors inside an auxiliary gutter must be grouped together to prevent current imbalance in the paralleled conductors due to inductive reactance. Code Change Summary: A new code section provides requirements for parallel conductors in an auxiliary gutter. Parallel conductor installations are covered in NEC® 310.10(H) and are permitted for each phase, polarity, neutral, or grounded conductor in sizes 1/0 AWG and larger. Joining conductors in parallel is like having two or more smaller conductors connected at each end to make one larger conductor. This is often done to make wire pulling easier. In order to install conductors in parallel, the paralleled conductors in each phase, polarity, neutral, grounded circuit conductor, equipment grounding conductor, or equipment bonding jumper must comply with all of the following: (1) Be the same length. (2) Consist of the same conductor material. (3) Be the same size in circular mil area. (4) Have the same insulation type. (5) Be terminated in the same manner. The above rules ensure that each set of parallel conductors carries the same ampacity. Where run in separate cables or raceways, the cables or raceways must have the same number of conductors and must have the same “electrical characteristics”. The phrase “electrical characteristics” refers to the properties of the raceway such as raceway material. Using the same raceway type (nonmetallic or ferrous metal) for each parallel set of conductors ensures that electrical current is not transferred to the raceway through induction. In the 2017 NEC®, additional code language was added to address proper grouping of parallel conductors inside an auxiliary gutter. Before the code change, the requirements for grouping of the parallel conductors was limited to within each raceway or cable but no mention was made about what goes on inside the gutter box. Section 300.20(A) states the following: Where conductors carrying alternating current are installed in ferrous metal enclosures or ferrous metal raceways, they shall be arranged so as to avoid heating the surrounding ferrous metal by induction. To accomplish this, all phase conductors and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors shall be grouped together. Most auxiliary gutters are made of ferrous metal therefore it only makes sense to keep parallel conductors grouped properly behind the gutter box cover. A similar code change occurred in Article 376 for metal wireways. Below is a preview of Article 366. See the actual NEC® text at NFPA.ORG for the complete code section. Once there, click on their link to free access to the 2017 NEC® edition of NFPA 70. 2017 Code Language: |
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Life lesson: If you’re being chased by a lion, you’re on a horse, to the left of you is a giraffe and on the right is a unicorn, what do you do? You stop drinking and get off the carousel.
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 89298 |
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 1:31pm |
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normally when OFF, the switch is open , so there is an open circuit... NO FLOW.
On a SPLIT plug system, you actually have MORE FLOW thru the WHITE when using one half of the plug.. If you use BOTH halves at the same time, the flow to the WHITE from the RED should cancel out the flow to the WHITE from the BLACK. above movie (YouTube) explains that about the 3 minute mark.
Edited by steve(ill) - 19 Jul 2023 at 1:33pm |
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Lars(wi)
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Permian Basin Points: 8300 |
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 1:22pm |
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Is there just as much current flowing thru a neutral, when an appliance, motor, light, etc., is in use as when the appliance is off? |
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 89298 |
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 12:42pm |
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think of a sin wave... RED is +120 v.... Black is -120 v .... white is "neutral" in the center.. ZERO on the graph.......you have to picture it as a 240 v SYSTEM.. even tho you are going to divide it into 2 - 120v circuits.
Three phase power does the same thing... Since they are OUT OF PHASE, when you add them up, the neutral ( white) see very little current flow.
The catch is you have to be on BOTH LEGS input to the breaker box, so you have a SIN WAVE. (240 v).. You cant have the Black and Red on two breakers on the SAME LEG INPUT..(120v each, 0 v difference ) if you did, the white wire would pull DOUBLE what the Red or Black is pulling. Edited by steve(ill) - 19 Jul 2023 at 12:47pm |
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Tbone95
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 10:50am |
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So if you use both halves of the outlet at the same time, which seems to be the point, the current from both would be carried by the white. How’s that allowed? |
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 8:51am |
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there is 240 volt "in the plug box" from the black to the red wire... but your right, they are SEPARATE inside the gang box to two INDIVIDUAL PLUGS , so you just have 120v to red to white and 120v black to white..... shows that in the movie.... no way to plug into the red and black with ONE PLUG... but a VOLT METER will show 240v inside that box.
The BREAKERS can not be a SPLIT using two on the SAME LEG inside the breaker box.. You must have the BLACK and RED on DIFFERENT legs inside the breaker box.
Edited by steve(ill) - 19 Jul 2023 at 8:57am |
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 8:44am |
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no, you're running two , 120 feeds from a ganged (2 pole) breaker. At no time does either receptacle get 240 . red and wht to 1/2, blk/wht to the other 1/2.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 8:41am |
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I looked up "SPLIT PLUG" as jay mentioned in his post. Personally i have not seen a 12-3 wire used to feed two ( split) plug.....You are really running a 240 v wire to TWO 120v sockets.. If you think about it, the power flow FROM the red to white, while it is flowing TO the black from the white... then the SIN WAVE CHANGES and the flow is TO the red (from white) and FROM the black (to the white).. In this way the Neutral (white) will not see excessive current flow... so that should work as long as the two BREAKERS are side by side on different INPUT LEGS of the breaker box.
Edited by steve(ill) - 19 Jul 2023 at 8:56am |
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Tbone95
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Posted: 19 Jul 2023 at 7:08am |
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Lars, as for where the current goes when it gets back to the panel…it goes back and forth around the loop changing direction 60 times a second. It doesn’t flow down a drain to the ground, that ground is to make for an easier path to ground than yourself if something goes wrong.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 11:08pm |
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red goes to one receptacle, blk to the other. They are fed from a 'double' breaker. allows you to have a toaster AND a kettle connected to the 'duplex receptacle'
well something dont add up there... If the RED has 20 amps and the BLACK has 20 amps... then the WHITE would have 40 amps.. If its the same size wire it is OVERLOADED....... assuming this is 120v circuits.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 11:04pm |
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In the US when you use RED- BLACK- WHITE.. you "normally" are connecting to a 240 v plug... like the stove or arc welder, etc..... "MOST" of the power usage is from BLACK to RED ( 240v) .. you may have a timer / light bulb / clock that is connected to the BLACK- WHITE and runs at 120v.......
That is the theory in your breaker box also Lars.... "MOST" of the power ( amps) are going between the RED - BLACK ( or your two HOT WIRES INTO THE BOX) that is 240v.... that runs the Air cond, stove, hot water heater, furnace, etc.... The WHITE wire is ( or neutral from the power pole) for the 120v circuits and normally only used for 50 amps ( in a 100 amp box), or 100 amps ( in a 200 amp box)..... it is basically not used ( much) on the 240v circuits.
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 9:11pm |
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Jay, I have understand the other outlet of the duplex would be ‘live’ but why would it be ‘lethal’?
We had a couple of those ‘double breakers’ in our previous house, not sure what they fed, as the whole time we were there, they never tripped(15amp). |
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 9:03pm |
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‘Double’ breaker, you mean the ones that have two ‘switches’ in a row in a single breaker slot?
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 24901 |
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Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 8:50pm |
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re: A 12-3 wire (red-black-white).... ( with bare ground)... is NOT to be used as two separate circuits. NOT true, at least north of the 49th, every kitchen is required to have 3 'splits'(20A nowadays). They are a duplex receptacle with the brass hot 'connector' removed, red goes to one receptacle, blk to the other. They are fed from a 'double' breaker. allows you to have a toaster AND a kettle connected to the 'duplex receptacle'. If either overloads BOTH kettle and toaster lose power.. What you can't have is them fed from SINGLE breakers. If you did and one tripped, the other receptacle would be LIVE and lethal. |
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 18 Jul 2023 at 8:30pm |
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Thanks Steve, for the clarification.
As I am no electrical engineer by any stretch, as per your explanation, a neutral can carry the same amps as the ‘hot’, where does the current flowing in the neutral go once it reaches the breaker panel? As every breaker panel I have looked at has two ‘hot’ wires coming from the transformer on the pole outside. If I’m not mistaken, the neutral bar in the panel meets with the ground, which goes outside to the ‘grounding rod’. Am I missing something? |
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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steve(ill)
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 89298 |
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Posted: 17 Jul 2023 at 9:14pm |
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if you had a 12-3 with ground... and run 20 amps on the black- white .... and 20 amps on the red - white ...( two 120v circuits) ..... the WHITE WIRE could have 40 amps ...... cant do that.
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