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Weeds! Rye? What a Mess!

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Tbone95 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 9:29am
Had something happen I’ve never had happen before.

In 2023, I planted oats underseeded with alfalfa and some grass seed like our farm has been doing since grandpa moved here in 1945. The year before that was corn which we got good control of the weeds, and last year in the oats the weeds weren’t too bad and we got those killed off in good time with MCPA. The crop was as cut, baled, wrapped for silage, pretty good yields. Alfalfa stand had a good start.

Was expecting a good crop and clean field this year. Instead it’s overrun with weeds. First this spring was a weed with a little white flower. I don’t remember what it was ( not hoary cress) but my niece looked it up. Was not toxic per se but too much of it could cause digestive problems in cattle. Now later in the year the southwest quarter of the field is solid marestail!

Needless to say I am not going to bale it! I’ve never had a hay field get overrun with weeds after cutting it. Ever!

Wondering how to rejuvenate the field though? Was thinking about working it up soon, let a flush of weeds set in, spray and plant rye?

Thoughts or suggestions?

Was thinking about taking an early cut of the rye off (chop) for feed then no tilling beans into it.

Edited by Tbone95 - 21 Aug 2024 at 9:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 11:08am
i have had better long term weed control with round up ready beans than I have with corn this year.  Some one on this site told me work the ground, let the weeds come up once, just a couple of inches, disk them down then plant (i did 18 inch rows) . Sprayed round up at recommended stage. Very clean field. With all the rain I was concerned about foxtail but so far so good. Whoever it was, thank you. Might even yield high enough to break even. Can't say that for corn, futures can't stay above 4 bucks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 12:39pm
In Michigan, farm is probably a bit south of you. I've been battling "Baby's Breath" invasive for the last several years. Sounds silly but it's not. Sets seed about now and has a fluffy seed dispersal system. Plugs up the radiator fast, I can get about 5 to 10 rounds and have to blow it out. Haven't found a good non herbicide solution yet. Planted rye last fall, was hoping to disk it under and broadcast more rye to get control. Waited two weeks too long and the baby breath got ahead of me.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 1:24pm
I don’t have a built in desire to avoid chemicals. I also don’t want to waste my time and money on planting rye if it’s not going to help. I’m not sure what the feed mill is charging for rye seed but private ads are showing $12 per bushel.

Any thoughts on the soy after rye?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 1:34pm
Looks like from what I’m reading it works good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 3:29pm
rye is tough on ground. not as bad as milo but close. if you want to double crop, did you consider triticale. I bought some tritcale balage a couple of years ago. Cows did well on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 3:58pm
I don’t understand? If it’s tough on ground why is it such a common cover crop and touted for building soil? Or is that only if you terminate it and leave it all there?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 5:16pm
Tbone95, try this approach. Mow down entire field with haybine, sickle or such mower so clippings get laid across ground for good drying. Wait 2-3 days so all clippings (marestail,weeds,alfalfa,etc?) have began to dry then mulch the clippings with any rotation blade type mower. Best if mower can discharge mulch to one side for more even coverage. Mulch it multiple passes if necessary. That will terminate weeds & alfalfa will rebirth up thru mulch. If alfalfa rebirth is thick enough, then leave it alone for future hay. If alfalfa is too thin, then seed it with rye to get a good rye stand established before winter. Healthy rye root’s toxin should suppress/minimize any weed seedlings from germinating following spring. Alfalfa is a legume(fixes root nitrogen nodules) will be fine & will compliment rye (grass). The taller rye becomes, the more root growth to better assist good water management & soil health. So in spring notill Enlist Soybeans into standing rye/alfalfa & then use whichever post herbicide or mix that fits(Glufosinate/Dicamba/Glyphosate).

Edited by AC7060IL - 21 Aug 2024 at 6:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 5:52pm
Only if you terminate it or plow it under. It does a good job of scavenging nitrogen. My agonomist says it can be a great carbon fixer ( as compared the a legume, a nitrogen fixer). I only know because i had a similar conversation with my guy two weeks ago.

Edited by dr p - 21 Aug 2024 at 5:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Burnett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 6:02pm
You might want to get the book Dirt to Soil by Gabe Brown.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by dr p dr p wrote:

Only if you terminate it or plow it under. It does a good job of scavenging nitrogen. My agonomist says it can be a great carbon fixer ( as compared the a legume, a nitrogen fixer). I only know because i had a similar conversation with my guy two weeks ago.
Growing Rye is not the enemy, but an ally. Don’t plow it under or terminate. if a good stand of soybeans can be established into whatever alive standing rye is left after planter roll down, then can leave rye alone until post soybean herbicide IF NEEDED. Soybean planter row units, tractor tires, planter drive tires will roll down taller rye in areas next to soybeans so sunlight can photosynthesis emerging soybean plants. Key is too have good sharp planter unit disk openers, get soybeans to a moderate/uniform depth(1” - 1.5”)& all soybeans covered with soil. Don’t use any residue managers. Notill coulters are optional. if disk openers are good. Soil in and around rye /alfalfa roots should be mellow enough for good planter activity. Don’t push it too wet. Be patient.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by AC7060IL AC7060IL wrote:

Tbone95, try this approach. Mow down entire field with haybine, sickle or such mower so clippings get laid across ground for good drying. Wait 2-3 days so all clippings (marestail,weeds,alfalfa,etc?) have began to dry then mulch the clippings with any rotation blade type mower. Best if mower can discharge mulch to one side for more even coverage. Mulch it multiple passes if necessary. That will terminate weeds & alfalfa will rebirth up thru mulch. If alfalfa rebirth is thick enough, then leave it alone for future hay. If alfalfa is too thin, then seed it with rye to get a good rye stand established before winter. Healthy rye root’s toxin should suppress/minimize any weed seedlings from germinating following spring. Alfalfa is a legume(fixes root nitrogen nodules) will be fine & will compliment rye (grass). The taller rye becomes, the more root growth to better assist good water management & soil health. So in spring notill Enlist Soybeans into standing rye/alfalfa & then use whichever post herbicide or mix that fits(Glufosinate/Dicamba/Glyphosate).

Doesn’t sound too bad, I guess my concern would be the marestail has already set a LOT of seed and seems that would come right back. ??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 7:47pm
I don't disagree with you ac, my only concern if the spring is wet and you have all that nitrogen from the alfalfa, the rye can grow crazy. Too mature rye has the nutritional value of an old tire. And when it gets tall, it can really suck the moisture out the soil and that is no fun to no-till into. I think t bones idea is straight on, just think he ahould consider a different cereal grain. Btw, the advice you gave me on oats was spot on. 90 bpa and heavy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DanWi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2024 at 9:34pm
If you can use the feed, plant the rye, harvest on May 15-20. Plant Enlist beans and come back and spray glyphosate, Enlist, and a residual like DUAL or Harness. There are some other combo chemicals that work good for resistant water hemp and marestail. Or put the residuals down early and keep the enlist in the toolbox for a second pass with glyphosate. Only problem is if you miss a weather window to get the rye off or cause a ton of compaction on wet soil harvesting it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DanielW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2024 at 12:20pm
Rye (cereal rye) is a very good weed suppressant. As others noted, it can really grow like heck - not always a good thing. But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing either. Not only does it grow well on (comparatively) little nutrients, but it can use some forms of nitrates that other grasses/cereals can't. It's often called a 'nitrogen scavenger'. In some organic farming practices it's used to help provide more usable N to other crops: It scavenges nitrates that other plants don't, converts it into usable forms, then tilled back in, where the usable N will be available to other crops as it decomposes.

If it were me, I'd till and plant rye this fall (real/cereal rye, not ryegrass). Then drill alfalfa straight into the rye come spring. The rye will look a little macerated after you pull the drill through, but as long as it's not too far along it'll come back quickly. Let the rye grow for a month or so and cut for green feed. As long as it's nearing the point of heading out or later, cutting it will kill it. That's pretty common practice in many places to get an early forage crop off a new hay seeding. My best alfalfa field is actually one I did similar to that: It was in a very (veeery) sandy field that was corn stubble when I got it. I wanted to put a cover in just to hold the soil together over winter and add a little organic matter. I broadcast rye in October, ran a light set of discs over it to get a little incorporation, and I wasn't expecting much. The rye surprised me and came up unbelievably well. I then took a gamble in the spring and frost-seeded alfalfa into the rye at about 25#/acre. It all came up together, then the rye took off and the alfalfa looked pretty sparse/stunted. But after cutting the rye, the alfalfa exploded, and there are pretty much no weeds thanks to the suppressant power of the rye.

Sprays are, of course, another option. But I try to avoid sprays wherever possible. I'm not a tree-hugging hippy by any stretch (quite the opposite), but once you've ben to a few soil biology seminars and work with a few large-scale organic folks, you realize just how harmful any spray is on the soil's microbe activity, which more and more people are quickly realizing is critical for soil health and disease resistance. As a comparison: I have two alfalfa fields at my fathers; one was planted in a field that was in a round-up-ready corn/beans rotation for years, the other that was fallow ground for a couple of years prior to breaking it up. The alfalfa looks great and almost identical in both fields, but if you pull shoots and look at the roots under a glass, you'll see almost no nodulation in the field that was round-up'd, versus crazy nodulation in the field that was fallow. It's quite something to see/compare, and has really convinced me to pay more attention to my soil's biology. The fallow field also comes back a lot faster between cuttings and looks a lot greener in the late fall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2024 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by Tbone95 Tbone95 wrote:

Originally posted by AC7060IL AC7060IL wrote:

Tbone95, try this approach. Mow down entire field with haybine, sickle or such mower so clippings get laid across ground for good drying. Wait 2-3 days so all clippings (marestail,weeds,alfalfa,etc?) have began to dry then mulch the clippings with any rotation blade type mower. Best if mower can discharge mulch to one side for more even coverage. Mulch it multiple passes if necessary. That will terminate weeds & alfalfa will rebirth up thru mulch. If alfalfa rebirth is thick enough, then leave it alone for future hay. If alfalfa is too thin, then seed it with rye to get a good rye stand established before winter. Healthy rye root’s toxin should suppress/minimize any weed seedlings from germinating following spring. Alfalfa is a legume(fixes root nitrogen nodules) will be fine & will compliment rye (grass). The taller rye becomes, the more root growth to better assist good water management & soil health. So in spring notill Enlist Soybeans into standing rye/alfalfa & then use whichever post herbicide or mix that fits(Glufosinate/Dicamba/Glyphosate).

Doesn’t sound too bad, I guess my concern would be the marestail has already set a LOT of seed and seems that would come right back. ??
Depends? If you get weedy field clipped & mulched now in August, some weed seed may try to germ before killing frost? That would be favorable. Some may get eaten by pheasants, turkeys, etc.~ depends on your wild bird populations?? So yes, a fair amount may try to germ next growing season during the rye(cereal grains) roots toxin’s pinnacle. The rye will have had its over-wintering time to establishment its roots. Yes, cereal grains roots continue to grow during many winter days even if top soil is frozen, but air temps are 30f & up. So if rye suppresses most marestail, then a quick hand pulling of all escapes might suffice? But if too many begin to germ, use a good post herbicide IF NEEDED. So please get a good stand of rye from the start. If it were me, I’d get rye broadcasted as soon as mulching is complete. Good fall rains might get it germed on their own? If you feel that mulch is too thick, notill the rye into it.

Edited by AC7060IL - 23 Aug 2024 at 8:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2024 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by dr p dr p wrote:

I don't disagree with you ac, my only concern if the spring is wet and you have all that nitrogen from the alfalfa, the rye can grow crazy. Too mature rye has the nutritional value of an old tire. And when it gets tall, it can really suck the moisture out the soil and that is no fun to no-till into. I think t bones idea is straight on, just think he ahould consider a different cereal grain. Btw, the advice you gave me on oats was spot on. 90 bpa and heavy

Congratulations for;
1. for listening,
2. going against tradition & trying a new concept(changing the way you farm),
3. achieving good testweight & good yields from your oat crop.

Know where you’re going with the legume nodules release, but I don’t think Tbone95’s soils have probably had long enough for microbes to accommodate that next spring ~ Probably in 3-5 years?? If I’m wrong then more power to the rye roots. More rye roots mean better water management, better(tiltier/mellow?) soils to notill into, & more root toxins to suppress weeds.
The weather is in charge, so whatever wetness develops the rye roots are a great drainage systems that offer good aspirate of soil moisture. Just got to be VERY OBSERVANT & understand when to plant before ALL SOIL MOISTURE is depleted by rye & be VERY patient with the weather…

Edited by AC7060IL - 22 Aug 2024 at 4:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2024 at 7:40pm
Good conversation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2024 at 8:39am
Patient with the weather? Well dang I was all in until that point!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2024 at 11:17am
Originally posted by Tbone95 Tbone95 wrote:

Patient with the weather? Well dang I was all in until that point!
“Ain’t no shame in that!” - Rango movie quote. Yes, the Great Lakes weather models are cruel. So yeah, do what you gotta do. If you do decide to grow overwinter rye & plowing it under in spring helps your situation, so be it… If you did nothing but grow rye thru winter, your soils would greatly benefit from scavenging nutrients that might otherwise run away with winter & early spring T-storm’s precipitation. And to some degrees the rye could suppress nasty weeds during that timeframe. Use whatever tillage at your disposal to aid the new year’s crop production. No judgement.
Overall take away then? Try to grow something in your soils all year long(11-12 months), not just 5-6 months. Soil microbes eat 12 months, not just 5-6 months. And their favorite buffet is usually next to growing roots. Carbon to nitrogen ratios in decaying plant residues is their choices of diet. That’s another days topic. Gotta walk before running. So your choice to growing a cereal winter crop now is choosing to walk.

Edited by AC7060IL - 23 Aug 2024 at 11:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2024 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by AC7060IL AC7060IL wrote:

Originally posted by Tbone95 Tbone95 wrote:

Patient with the weather? Well dang I was all in until that point!
“Ain’t no shame in that!” - Rango movie quote. Yes, the Great Lakes weather models are cruel. So yeah, do what you gotta do. If you do decide to grow overwinter rye & plowing it under in spring helps your situation, so be it… If you did nothing but grow rye thru winter, your soils would greatly benefit from scavenging nutrients that might otherwise run away with winter & early spring T-storm’s precipitation. And to some degrees the rye could suppress nasty weeds during that timeframe. Use whatever tillage at your disposal to aid the new year’s crop production. No judgement.
Overall take away then? Try to grow something in your soils all year long(11-12 months), not just 5-6 months. Soil microbes eat 12 months, not just 5-6 months. And their favorite buffet is usually next to growing roots. Carbon to nitrogen ratios in decaying plant residues is their choices of diet. That’s another days topic. Gotta walk before running. So your choice to growing a cereal winter crop now is choosing to walk.


2022, off to a great start, mid season drought and heat, crops barely made min yield/ insurance threshold.

2023, early season extreme drought, took 2/3 of my corn 5 + weeks to emerge!!!! Never recovered. While the volume looked like it was there, with moisture in the 30’s and test weight in the 40’s you could say I didn’t fare so hot. At least the price dropped $1 per bushel between budget and harvest.

2024, wet from mid April to early August. I got my crops in though many fields around went unplanted. Corn sort of pale, beans look ok. Nearly impossible to make dry hay. Finishing with first cutting now.

Man I would love a year of average weather!!!

Thank you and all for the advice!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jvin248 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2024 at 10:24pm
.

Drill winter rye grain six to eight weeks before frost to have a maximum stand in spring.

I'm mixing buckwheat this fall with the rye. Maybe clover. Those three hand out NPK.

If you disk the rye down in spring you waste it. 

Plant corn beans into standing rye either strip till or using row cleaners (corn beans need hotter ground to germinate than covered in rye mulch). Then once the corn beans are up, you terminate the rye (rolling or chems). That blocks most weeds. Roller-crimper is best for single pass but I've had good success with a flat cylinder roller or cultipacker going down and back since any stand up comedians get flattened the second way.

Weeds tell you the soil is compacted or missing something. Fix that issue and the weeds vanish. Otherwise there is a thousand year seed bank to fight.

If you can manage it, between four and eight plant cover crop species mix give synergistic results. Weeds can be part of the mix ;) or so they say.

.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2024 at 9:16am
Well, field has been steadily soil tested for years, so if it’s missing something, must be undetectable.

Compaction there seems unlikely, guess anything is possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote victoryallis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2024 at 8:35am
We sprayed our new alfalfa with Raptor can see right to the spot section control shut the boom off a second too soon.
8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760
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