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WD-45 No Spark (Update -- 7/2/2020)

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    Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 7:33pm
So an update on this WD-45 that has been sitting for 10 years in a dirt floor barn at my cousin's place without running... I spent today working on this tractor one more time, and after a 4 hour marathon session in the heat, I finally had success! Even though it was hot and humid and miserable all day, it was worth it. I took a bit of video of the event and of the engine running:



If you listen to the video, it does seem like there is some engine flutter... Not sure if I have a miss on one cylinder, or if the exhaust manifold has a leak or one of the valves is sticking or what, but it makes a pretty nasty thumping sound from time to time while running with the throttle cracked open a little bit. Also pretty easy to get it to backfire. But hey, it runs, so it's a start!!

So what all did it take... I filed the points, cleaned the gas tank (there was a rotting piece of wood in there that was causing lots of trouble), new gas cap, new sediment bowl assembly and gaskets, cleaned the carburetor, new carb gaskets, fresh gas, topped off fluids (1.5 gal of antifreeze, 1 gallon of hydraulic fluid between the loader and the rear rams, 2 quarts of oil for the motor), new gear shift boot, charged battery and cleaned all of the battery connections in the ignition side... And then today, it finally came to fruition!







Also someone had asked me awhile back about the wheel weights, so I took some pictures of the markings on them.



Thanks for the assistance along the way; you guys have been fantastic as always!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 8:41pm
GG,
 Thanks for taking the time to post the video and pictures. As I look beyond the coating of Dust I see a tractor that was used but not abused. It has good decals. Probably at least one repaint. So it was a tractor someone cared about. You put in a lot of time getting the systems to function! 
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alberta Phil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 9:00pm
Good goin'!!  Always a "Yahoo!) moment when they first fire up after a long sleep.
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Originally posted by Sugarmaker Sugarmaker wrote:

GG,
 Thanks for taking the time to post the video and pictures. As I look beyond the coating of Dust I see a tractor that was used but not abused. It has good decals. Probably at least one repaint. So it was a tractor someone cared about. You put in a lot of time getting the systems to function! 
Regards,
 Chris


This tractor was always kept in a shed or a barn as far as I understand it. It was the "new" replacement to a bunch of old school John Deeres. Lots of hours using a 3 bottom plow I am told. Loader seemed to work good up and down and both bucket tilt directions. Never used one before but sure seems handy.

I definitely concur with the likely having one repaint. The gas tank doesn't match the one off my WDs that were never repainted, and the way the pant "flaked" off in one spot did not seem correct for original paint. Decals sure do look good though, like you said.

Not sure what to do about the engine flutter. Probably need to let a real mechanic check that out. I am told that it used to be prone to "backfires" and such, and the way it is running now seems like how it was running when it was last put in the barn (there was concern when it was last shedded about the massive backfire out of the stack at times).

I also noticed as I watched the exhaust manifold that there are jumps of hot sparks every now and again (you can even see this happen once in the video I posted). This is what makes me wonder if it has a leak in the exhaust side there somehow. But feels good to finally get it running!

Originally posted by Alberta Phil Alberta Phil wrote:

Good goin'!!  Always a "Yahoo!) moment when they first fire up after a long sleep.


Thanks and indeed. Caught me by surprise, I was just about ready to let go of the starter cuz I figured it wouldn't go (I was playing with the choke a bit there as it went). I counted about 10 distinct starter "turns" of the engine before it popped off; I feel that's pretty good! Smile


Edited by garden_guy - 02 Jul 2020 at 10:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dennis(IA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 10:14pm
Good Job!! Don't you just love working on a tractor that has a loader on LOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garden_guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by Dennis(IA) Dennis(IA) wrote:

Good Job!! Don't you just love working on a tractor that has a loader on LOL.


Haha, oh man... I swear having to work around that loader and the 3-point mower being attached probably doubled or tripled the effort to do stuff. Cry At least I didn't bust my noggin'! Just a couple of arm and shoulder bangs.

This tractor just has a ton of stuff on it. The traction booster even got in the way of the gas tank work! Plus, I dropped a few of my tools into the soft dirt floor a couple of times, need to clean them up good...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 1:44am
GG,
 I think you may find issues with the valve lash and or timing. Could be a stuck valve too. I am not a expert. Will be good to hear from Dr or MACK.
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Congratulations, It's a great feeling when one comes back to life!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 7:24am
Kinda sounds like uneven compression while cranking. Had to have some valves open while parked which likely have some rusty seats. Don't know if bad distributor cap could cause the rough running or not. Ether way,good job. It is always satisfying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garden_guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 10:16am
Originally posted by Sugarmaker Sugarmaker wrote:

GG,
 I think you may find issues with the valve lash and or timing. Could be a stuck valve too. I am not a expert. Will be good to hear from Dr or MACK.
Regards,
 Chris


Thanks! Sounds like it was running in this kind of condition when it was last parked (there was concern over the occasional fire out of the stack), so sounds like something has been going on with it. Hoping we can get it figured out (and maybe I can watch over someone's shoulder if they have to go into the engine, as I've never been into one).
 
 I also don't know what the front hydraulic pump is supposed to sound like when running, so that doesn't help. Too many "extras" on this tractor!!

Originally posted by IBWD MIke IBWD MIke wrote:

Congratulations, It's a great feeling when one comes back to life!


Indeed; I'm still excited!! Smile

Originally posted by SteveM C/IL SteveM C/IL wrote:

Kinda sounds like uneven compression while cranking. Had to have some valves open while parked which likely have some rusty seats. Don't know if bad distributor cap could cause the rough running or not. Ether way,good job. It is always satisfying.


Interesting. I am not sure what to listen for, as this tractor is still a 6V setup, but I kind of hear the differences between occasional "double rolls" and "single rolls" with the starter in the video (or where it seems to spin the next time sooner). My two WDs use an 8V (with an M&W piston kit) and a 12V respectively, so they sound a bit different when cranking.


Edited by garden_guy - 03 Jul 2020 at 10:18am
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GG, congratulations on getting her to run! Thanks for posting the video - seeing the "Yahoo!" moments is great fun for the rest of us.

I managed to reduce the engine "flutter" on my WD45 by setting the timing - don't know if that might help you. Perhaps reset valve lash first, then pull the head and do a valve job is the symptoms don't go away? 

Good luck, and please keep posting. Clap 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ac hunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 11:44am
     That picture of you working on the tractor sure makes it look awkward to get things done; I'm sure it is. Sounds like you are having some good luck for all your efforts though. Don't loose faith. You got it running so maybe any problems aren't too great.
     I was the one who asked about the weights. Thanks for the additional pictures. I have 4 weights identical to yours that I am getting ready to make orange and mount on a WD-45 to replace the weight lost by removing the calcium chloride. I probably wouldn't have been motivated to use these weights had it not been for seeing them on your tractor. Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 3:09pm
GG,
 Yes as mentioned the pictures are part of the motivation factor mentioned above. Its amazing how these kinds of threads can get us going on a project!
By the way that cranking as mentioned does not sound normal. Not there with you but I dont think your WD's sound like that? I was thinking timing when I heard it laboring to spin over. Did you try spinning it over when the plugs were out? 
Is it still 6 volt? I may have missed that episode?:)
 Regards,
 Chris
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Originally posted by Dave(inMA) Dave(inMA) wrote:

GG, congratulations on getting her to run! Thanks for posting the video - seeing the "Yahoo!" moments is great fun for the rest of us.

I managed to reduce the engine "flutter" on my WD45 by setting the timing - don't know if that might help you. Perhaps reset valve lash first, then pull the head and do a valve job is the symptoms don't go away? 

Good luck, and please keep posting. Clap 


Thank you!! I always try to make sure I have a camera on hand anymore when I try something like this, and also so I can take pictures of stuff as I take them apart so I can remember how to put it back together, haha.

Definitely a lot of discussion on what the next step is, but it sure sounds like pulling the valve cover is going to be high on that hit list. Did you use a timing light? Wonder if the valves were ever redone with hardened seats on this tractor...

Originally posted by ac hunter ac hunter wrote:

     That picture of you working on the tractor sure makes it look awkward to get things done; I'm sure it is. Sounds like you are having some good luck for all your efforts though. Don't loose faith. You got it running so maybe any problems aren't too great.
     I was the one who asked about the weights. Thanks for the additional pictures. I have 4 weights identical to yours that I am getting ready to make orange and mount on a WD-45 to replace the weight lost by removing the calcium chloride. I probably wouldn't have been motivated to use these weights had it not been for seeing them on your tractor. Thanks.


Yeah, working around a loader and a three point mower is awful. It doesn't help the barn floor is dusty dirt and uneven with groundhog holes in it. I stumbled multiple times but fortunately never hit the dirt!

So glad that the pictures of the weights worked out for you!! These look like different weights than I have ever seen before myself, so I tried to get pictures of all the markings I saw. Best of luck on mounting yours! I am going to swap the calcium out of my rears on my tractor and put in some other fluid in the next year or two.

Originally posted by Sugarmaker Sugarmaker wrote:

GG,
 Yes as mentioned the pictures are part of the motivation factor mentioned above. Its amazing how these kinds of threads can get us going on a project!
By the way that cranking as mentioned does not sound normal. Not there with you but I dont think your WD's sound like that? I was thinking timing when I heard it laboring to spin over. Did you try spinning it over when the plugs were out? 
Is it still 6 volt? I may have missed that episode?:)
 Regards,
 Chris


I enjoy taking pictures and videos as I go, especially when you get some surprise payoff. Or so you can look at it and go "wow, was I really sweating that bad?". It was like 95 degrees here and horrid humidity; I was sweating like mad all day.

Yeah my 12V WD spins so fast it doesn't have anything like that. The one with M&W pistons has a slower churn like that on every spin, so it didn't feel completely off, but I always figured it was due to the higher compression piston kit. I should try to crank it again and listen for all the spins and see if any seem quicker for no reason.

This tractor is indeed still a 6V system. So I didn't think much of the slow cranking. I had a buddy watch the video and he told me that it seems like right when I let go of the starter, there was enough ignition power to fire the engine and that is why it started... I was able to shut it off and restart it 3 times after this, but I think on this initial fire-up that is what seems to have happened. Did not try spinning it over with the plugs out. Didn't even think about timing until you guys mentioned it... Hmmm...
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I was always under the impression that a double backfire when decelerating the engine was a sign of being tuned right. Sitting at an idle or little above, it shouldn't back fire.
 If timing doesn't seem to help, I think  valve cover gasket would be a cheap investment to check and set valve lash.
 Good to see another one wake up from  long nap. Big smile Clap Thumbs Up Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boss Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2020 at 5:52pm
From sitting there could be dry carbon on the valves causing them not to seat completely. Some run time may help clear things up. Especially if you can work it. Double check point gap and then timing. Point gap effects timing. Loaders are a pain to work around but are so handy to have. Inspect your battery cables close for bulges and cracks in the coating indicating corrosion. Make sure all cable connections are clean. Might be corrosion inside the starter switch all so. All contribute to slow cranking. Congrats on getting this far.

Edited by Boss Man - 03 Jul 2020 at 5:55pm
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GG, I'm having an issue with the ignition switch in my WD45. In the "start" position the engine cranks but doesn't fire. When I release the key to the "run" position, the engine fires and runs. I think that the connection to the coil isn't live in the "start" position. I'm going to test this by installing a lead from the post on the solenoid switch to the coil - betting it'll fire in the "start" position. This sounds like what you are describing as having happened when your tractor first started.

Dave
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I’m not a salesman, just a believer In a product called Seafoam. If your not familiar with it get some, follow the directions on the can. Drain your oil, install new filter and oil but allow room for the entire can of Seafoam. Run it in there for at least a half hour and watch how your oil becomes black as coal. It cleans the inside of the engine, bearings, rings, valves. Anywhere the oil goes it cleans. I would suggest draining the oil out, install new filter and oil, more Seafoam. This will finish cleaning any remaining crud in the engine. The more you run it the more it cleans. It has saved me 2 engine rebuilds on tractors I have bought that had been setting along time. Smoked like crazy when I got them started due to stuck rings. Ran smoother after about 15 minutes and to this day neither smoke. Just my 2 cents.
1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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In other words do it twice if I confused you with my post.
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Check the voltage drawof the starter. If it's way up there take it to a good starter man
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Originally posted by Dave(inMA) Dave(inMA) wrote:

GG, I'm having an issue with the ignition switch in my WD45. In the "start" position the engine cranks but doesn't fire. When I release the key to the "run" position, the engine fires and runs. I think that the connection to the coil isn't live in the "start" position. I'm going to test this by installing a lead from the post on the solenoid switch to the coil - betting it'll fire in the "start" position. This sounds like what you are describing as having happened when your tractor first started.

Dave

This sounds like your starter is drawing too much load off the battery, not leaving enough to spark the ignition. Never a problem with a magneto set up, but often is with a coil-distributor set up.
 I had the same problem with my WC on 6 volt set up with distributor, and found my coil wasn't what it was labeled as. It showed 2.2 or 2.3 ohms instead of 1.5.  Changing out the "off the shelf coil" to a 40,000 volt Pertronics Flame Thrower 1.5 ohm coil fixed that.
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Originally posted by ac hunter ac hunter wrote:

     That picture of you working on the tractor sure makes it look awkward to get things done; I'm sure it is. Sounds like you are having some good luck for all your efforts though. Don't loose faith. You got it running so maybe any problems aren't too great.
     I was the one who asked about the weights. Thanks for the additional pictures. I have 4 weights identical to yours that I am getting ready to make orange and mount on a WD-45 to replace the weight lost by removing the calcium chloride. I probably wouldn't have been motivated to use these weights had it not been for seeing them on your tractor. Thanks.
ac hunter, I actually prefer the look of the F&H weights to original WD weights. I think they are a little heavier too.
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Originally posted by CTuckerNWIL CTuckerNWIL wrote:

I was always under the impression that a double backfire when decelerating the engine was a sign of being tuned right. Sitting at an idle or little above, it shouldn't back fire.
 If timing doesn't seem to help, I think  valve cover gasket would be a cheap investment to check and set valve lash.
 Good to see another one wake up from  long nap. Big smile Clap Thumbs Up Thumbs Up


Yeah I know my two WDs will do a slight pop or two if you decelerate down to idle really fast. I wasn't brave enough to crack the throttle open more than 1/4 way on this one until I could figure out what the noise was...

Seems like I should order me a valve cover gasket and prepare to do some deeper investigation!!

Originally posted by Boss Man Boss Man wrote:

From sitting there could be dry carbon on the valves causing them not to seat completely. Some run time may help clear things up. Especially if you can work it. Double check point gap and then timing. Point gap effects timing. Loaders are a pain to work around but are so handy to have. Inspect your battery cables close for bulges and cracks in the coating indicating corrosion. Make sure all cable connections are clean. Might be corrosion inside the starter switch all so. All contribute to slow cranking. Congrats on getting this far.


The battery cables and all that look good. They are all brand new within the last 20 years and a heavy gauge. No bulges or damage. Did not look inside the starter switch though, that's a good one.

Originally posted by Dave(inMA) Dave(inMA) wrote:

GG, I'm having an issue with the ignition switch in my WD45. In the "start" position the engine cranks but doesn't fire. When I release the key to the "run" position, the engine fires and runs. I think that the connection to the coil isn't live in the "start" position. I'm going to test this by installing a lead from the post on the solenoid switch to the coil - betting it'll fire in the "start" position. This sounds like what you are describing as having happened when your tractor first started.

Dave


Interesting. Yeah, I've got a new ignition switch on order, that may be part of the issue here. I've just got a two position key here. Horizontal is "off" and vertical is "on".

Originally posted by AC720Man AC720Man wrote:

I’m not a salesman, just a believer In a product called Seafoam. If your not familiar with it get some, follow the directions on the can. Drain your oil, install new filter and oil but allow room for the entire can of Seafoam. Run it in there for at least a half hour and watch how your oil becomes black as coal. It cleans the inside of the engine, bearings, rings, valves. Anywhere the oil goes it cleans. I would suggest draining the oil out, install new filter and oil, more Seafoam. This will finish cleaning any remaining crud in the engine. The more you run it the more it cleans. It has saved me 2 engine rebuilds on tractors I have bought that had been setting along time. Smoked like crazy when I got them started due to stuck rings. Ran smoother after about 15 minutes and to this day neither smoke. Just my 2 cents.


Hmmm.... I have never used seafoam but I know a bunch of people swear by it. May have to keep this in mind going forward. At least I can start it up and get it out of the barn to work on it now!

Originally posted by LeonR2013 LeonR2013 wrote:

Check the voltage drawof the starter. If it's way up there take it to a good starter man


How much should it draw? I assume I am maybe dropping the battery voltage down a ton, or maybe the battery isn't as strong as it isn't brand new?

Originally posted by CTuckerNWIL CTuckerNWIL wrote:

This sounds like your starter is drawing too much load off the battery, not leaving enough to spark the ignition. Never a problem with a magneto set up, but often is with a coil-distributor set up.
 I had the same problem with my WC on 6 volt set up with distributor, and found my coil wasn't what it was labeled as. It showed 2.2 or 2.3 ohms instead of 1.5.  Changing out the "off the shelf coil" to a 40,000 volt Pertronics Flame Thrower 1.5 ohm coil fixed that.


Sure does seem like what may have been the case here. I was able to shut the tractor off and re-start it 2 or 3 times without incident, maybe my battery was weak from cranking and sitting? Still, peculiar that it fired right as I let go of the starter. I think the coil did ohm out between 1.3 and 1.7 ohms, I'd have to double check though.

Originally posted by IBWD MIke IBWD MIke wrote:

ac hunter, I actually prefer the look of the F&H weights to original WD weights. I think they are a little heavier too.


Dang those F&H weights look sharp! Definitely can tell the difference from standard WD weights. Haven't seen many of those around here.
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GG,
 Your almost as busy responding to us as working on tractors! Nice job in both areas.
 Remember a friend once told me about working on these " its only nuts and bolts" !
Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 04 Jul 2020 at 10:55am
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Originally posted by Sugarmaker Sugarmaker wrote:

GG,
 Your almost as busy responding to us as working on tractors! Nice job in both areas.
 Remember a friend once told me about working on these " its only nuts and bolts" !
Regards,
 Chris


Indeed, this has been a popular thread! It's been a nice payoff for several weekends worth of work on the old tractor.

Starting to put together a parts list of things I should buy before I dig in more, like a valve cover gasket.

Never had any formal training in turning a wrench, everything I've learned how to do I've learned on my own by tinkering, watching youtube, or chatting to you folks here and at a couple other tractor forums.

-GG
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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 8:47pm
CTucker, thanks for your comment on my starter switch issue. You could be right as what I'm seeing is a classic behavior for starter circuits that suck too much current. However, I have a 12v system, a rebuilt 12v starter, a well-charged battery, and an ignition switch that's been giving my issues. The switch often won't make the internal connections it ought to make due, I think, to internal corrosion. I've thought up a test that may offer a clue or two.
WC, CA, D14, WD45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 9:37pm
Dave,
 I used the NAPA switches for a while almost all of them failed. I have moved to a marine grade Sierra brand and we have been having good success. I use the 4 contact ones even though I am still using the pull rod vs a solenoid.
 Just thought i would through that out there. 
I had one of the NAPA switches fail at a tractor pull. I was not a happy camper!
 Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 4:37am
Chris, I have a Sierra switch that I'm going to install and see if the problem goes away. I bought it after you had recommended them on another thread.

My apology, GG, for briefly hijacking your thread!! 

Dave
WC, CA, D14, WD45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ac hunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 7:07am
IBWD Mike,
     Yes, your tractor looks good with those weights. Is she dressed for plowing or pulling? Regardless looks adequate for any job. Thanks for the picture. Too hot here for me to work very long outside; 90+ degrees for several days now and probably about too hot to paint.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garden_guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 8:38am
No worries guys; hijack away! I'm on a search for some parts and figuring out my next steps anyway, but it is so hot and humid here for the foreseeable future I probably won't make much progress for awhile.
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