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WD-45 -- no fuel and no spark

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garden_guy View Drop Down
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Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Location: Illinois
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    Posted: 22 May 2020 at 6:08pm
Figured I'd make a new topic instead of clutter up my loader one... Anywho, I took the TSX 464 carb apart and have cleaned it up. But today I went out and worked on it and put a known good inline spark tester on plugs #1 and #4 and got NO spark. So something is amiss there (this tractor has sat for 8-10 years without running). In addition, I found out there was no gas coming out of the tank when you'd open the petcock. So I pulled the tank.


This tank paint job makes me suspicious of if this was original or a replacement...


Look at that nice original orange paint underneath the tank though -- the true original WD-45 color?


Anyway -- got the tank off and felt something slosh around inside of it. Took me about 15 minutes to fish this out, I think somebody broke off a measurement stick in the tank years (20? 30?) ago, and it's starting to have the paint slough off and the wood break down and it plugged up the sediment bowl valve and I think it must've been a bit caustic because there's horrible pitting in the zinc casting internals and the stopper valve is rusted and corroded. I have a new one on order from Steiner. Was quite a surprise to me, haha.



Also, as a side bar, working around a loader frame is a pain. Getting the tank off was a bear. Could just raise the hood enough to hit the loader frame to slide the tank out the back and over the bracket where the traction booster and hydraulic quadrant run to.



So anyway... Carb is cleaned out and just needs the gasket put in and back together. Gas tank is in the garage waiting for me to clean it out some more. New sediment bowl and fuel valve assembly is on order.

And then I need to figure out what's up with the electronics system. Where to start? The ignition switch? The coil? Points? Condensor? Easy diagnostics to tell what component may be biting me? The tractor turns over okay on 6V, but doesn't "fire".
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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 6:41pm
Garden Guy, that loader frame looks like a real in the backside! There's one on my WD45 but it's a lot less in the way than yours.

What have you done to the ignition system? At a minimum I'd clean the points with fine grit cloth and re-gap them. Measure voltage at both stud connections on the coil - should be 6 volts. Then check voltage at the points - with them open, you should get 6 volts at the stationary side. Then with points closed, use a screwdriver to open them - you should see a spark. This should get you some useful information and then guys on here can advise further.

On you fuel tank - likely needs a thorough cleaning. In the meantime, you could rig up a temporary tank - clamp it to that %$#*& loader frame and run a line to your spiffy new carb. That will take simplify life for you.

Let us know how you make out! Just keep on truckin' - you'll get her running!

Dave
WC, CA, D14, WD45
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Sugarmaker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 8:08pm
GG,
 Ok, I will bite! I have never seen the offset steering wheel before! Very interesting. It looks your finding normal/ typical Allis issues after setting that long! Keep us updated please. Good pictures! That tractor was used in dusty conditions!
 Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 22 May 2020 at 8:08pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Dave(inMA) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave(inMA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 8:32pm
Another suggestion: unbolt and polish the connections to ground - corrosion will build up there, and 6 volt systems don't have enough voltage to overcome the resistance. As a result, you may be using all your volts just to spin the starter, leaving little or none to ignite the fire.
WC, CA, D14, WD45
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Boss Man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boss Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2020 at 7:34am
I would unbolt the tie bar on the loader frame for easier working. One end is slotted so you can loosen and rotate out of the way. Just be sure to put it back on before using the loader. As said above sand the points. They will glaze over while sitting and not conduct electricity like they're supposed to
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2020 at 8:12am
Looks like a low hour machine. Nice! I vote points as well. You can park points wher they will open with a twist of rotor. Pull coil wire out of cap and hold near engine then twist rotor. Points will cause spark as they open. Do this with dust cover off and rotor on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2020 at 10:17am
Disconnect the power lead coming from switch to the coil.  Lift the coil wire out and swing it over near the block.

Get a piece of wire about 6ft long, with alligator clips.  Clip one to the battery.  Touch the other to the + terminal, and lift it off.  DO you get spark?  If yes, the points are closed.  If no, points are either open, and the coil is bad.

Remove the cap, look at the points.  Are they closed?  if not, blip the starter 'till they are, and repeat the test above.  With points closed, you should get a spark.  If not, clean the points.  They very might be OEM or high-quality points, I would NOT use anything abrasive to clean them if I could avoid it, because they're likely plated with some very nice metal that we just don't get on ignition points anymore...  My usual, is a business card... put it in there, and put a little finger-pressure on the back side of the points, and wiggle the card back and forth as I pull it out.

Once you can snick the wire on the + and have a spark, the next process is to verify that the points are opening and closing as the distributor shaft turns.  With loader in place, using a crank is probably not practical, so just blip the starter and watch for spark.  You may need to spray the points out with carb/brake cleaner to get 'em to move nicely, put a tiny dab of light grease on the point cam after you do.

When the points open, you shouldn't see a big spark across them... a little every so often is not unusual, but lots of spark across the points means condenser or coil is shot.  If that condenser is still good, don't replace it, as it is most likely better than whatever you can buy as a replacement NOW.

Spray out the inside of the cap with electrical cleaner.  do same for the rotor, and around each plug boot.

After that, pull each plug, clean them (probably fouled with crud from sitting), and crank the engine, look at each plug.  A snappy, mean blue-white spark is what you want.  A flaccid red one, or small and wheezy lame is not.

Now, I don't know if the building it's pictured in is your regular work area, or just where it's been enterned for a while, but If it were me, I'd either drag it out with a chain and give it a pressure-washer, or do that as soon as I got it started.  With the bucket down, it'll drag backwards... if you can get around the front side with another loader, or even a high-lift jack, pick the bucket up a foot or two, and stick some 2x4s in alongside the lift arms to hold it there, so you can roll it around...

I'll 2nd AND 3rd the temporary-tank suggestion that Dave made.  I have a 1 gallon plastic tank from some junk riding mower, it's got two pieces of angle iron on it, and I welded a cheap pair of vise-grips (not the real ones) to it, I just find a good spot to clamp it.  It's got a hose, with a shutoff valve, and another couple feet of hose... and I use it to test-run EVERYTHING.

Which reminds me...
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garden_guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2020 at 10:32am
Dave (in MA) -- All I've done to the ignition system is put an inline spark tester (the flashy bulb type that plugs in to the spark plug wire and then onto the plug) and see we get no spark. Need to check connections and clean contacts and check the points for sure.

Sugarmaker -- I've been told that the offset steering wheel is a gear box add on for when people added a loader but didn't opt for power steering? It's very interesting, I had never seen one before myself. But oh man this barn is a dust and dirt trap!

Boss Man -- Good idea to pull that loader bar off. And will also clean the points.

SteveM C/IL -- I think the only thing wrong with it, is the right side of the grill has been crushed in (probably a loader related incident, no doubt). Single family tractor (previous owner died 20+ years ago, his kids have it now), been kept in a shed or barn all of its life at least. Was the only orange on a farm with at least 4 John Deeres, haha.

DaveKamp -- Thanks for all the electrical diagnostics stuff. Will note this all down. I have to drive a little over an hour to work on this tractor, so it'll probably be next weekend before I get out there. Will take a meter with me and some other stuff to test her out with. Interesting idea to use a business card instead of emery cloth or an abrasive to clean the points.

Yeah with the loader in place, I can't crank it manually at all, as the crank pulley has the loader pump mounted to it. Never had seen that done before! But makes working on it even more exciting, lol. Will have to find some electrical clenaer. Unfortunately I am working on this where it sits in their barn and have nothing to really yank it out with (I have a car not a truck). If I was closer I'd take my WD over there and drag her out backwards, lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2020 at 11:41am
GG,
 Ok, i didn't realize this was a new tractor you are working on? You will need to be more resourceful to get it running. Whats your plan to get it home?
Regards,
 Chris

D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garden_guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2020 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by Sugarmaker Sugarmaker wrote:

GG,
 Ok, i didn't realize this was a new tractor you are working on? You will need to be more resourceful to get it running. Whats your plan to get it home?
Regards,
 Chris



This one is actually my cousin's tractor. I'm just the one left in the family that knows how to work on them I guess, haha. Big smile
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Dan1129 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan1129 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2020 at 6:09pm
Dumb newbie question. Restoring my grandfathers WD45. Where is the points located to hit with sandpaper? as this one has sat 20 years without running as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2020 at 8:15pm
Points on a distributor-equipped WD, WD45, and D17 are in the base of the distributor, under the distributor cap.  If you're gonna use sandpaper, don't go any lower than 400 grit, all you'll do is tear off the precious plating,and leave pieces of abrasive embedded in the points. Thick paper, drawn through a few times after quick shot of carb, brake, or electrical contact cleaner will do nicely.

Don't call yourself 'dumb', Dan... calling yourself a 'newbie' indicates that you're plenty smart enough to know what you do, and do not know.

For the newbies, the Allis distributor's base has a bronze bushing inside that the distributor shaft spins in.  When that bushing becomes worn, the shaft wobbles around, rather than running true. When it wobbles, a variety of things happen, the most prevalent being the contact point gap becomes unstable, causing missed ignition events, backfires, and generally poor running, and those unaware frequently dive into a carbeurator rebuild, rather than investigating ignition...

Like anything else, there are 'characteristic symptoms' which are caused by machine-specific tendancies that you likely wouldn't know without being forewarned...

...so if you're working on one, and willing to admit being a newbie, don't be afraid to ask.

We're all here for 'ya!
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Sugarmaker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2020 at 9:20pm
Dan1129,
Welcome! 
Here is a shot of a WD45 distributor. The points are in there at top. Condenser at bottom. not a good picture. Sorry.
You may want to start a thread on your tractor too.
Regards,
 Chris



Edited by Sugarmaker - 24 May 2020 at 9:21pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garden_guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 11:21am
Don't forget to check for corrosion where the rotor goes around the distributor cap, too!

Hoping to get back out there to work on it next weekend... Maybe this weekend... Hard to say. Waiting for some parts, but could poke around on the electrical system at least.
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