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WC Question

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JerNan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerNan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: WC Question
    Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 3:56pm
Hi all, new member here.  Have 2 Allis tractors, a WD-45 we picked up around 1980 or so and have kept up and used each year since.  Still runs great.  
Now attempting to resurrect a WC that has been idle for about 40 years or so.  Good news is that it's been stored inside, not stuck, and has spark.  In gathering parts & supplies for this project I'm wondering about the oil filter.  Checked with dealer and online part suppliers and they all supply a spin on filter such as used on WD-45.  My WC (serial # suggests it's 1942 model) has a large canister type filter with a couple of small hoses plumbed into the block.   Filter element inside is some old Co-op number.  Anyone know what filter to look for here?  Was this style filter somewhat rare in the WC's?  Would it be advisable to look for a spin on mount and convert?  Thank you

Jerry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 6:24pm
Jerry, that is ODD and certainly not an option.. The original filter would have been the spin on By pass like your WD45... Hard telling what someone did on the "CONVERSION".. can you show a picture of where the hoses were installed ?   The BYPASS FILTER used on these motors would bleed off 15% of the pump oil, filter it, and dump back to sump.. It was NOT part of the OIL PATH.... Newer tractors / cars/ trucks, pump the oil THRU the filter to clean it, then route THRU the motor for lube..

You need to determine if the system is still just cleaning a PORTION of the oil and then DUMPING it back to sump , or if someone tried to put a FULL FLOW system on it.. That can be done, but with some difficulty.

PHOTOS ?  or description of where the hoses are connected ( compared to what your WD45 looks like).
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 6:39pm
Your original filter should look like this ( spin on) and the aluminum casting it screws onto is bolted to the engine block with a GASKET shown below.... Oil goes into the filter,  ( 15%) and then dumps thru the oval center port in the gasket, back to the oil SUMP.. The remaining 85% of the oil goes thru the lines to the MOTOR for lube..

On your WC, of the oil OUTLET dumps back into the block at the oval center port, then it is still BYPASS type... If the oil goes into the filter and the OUTLET goes to all the FILTER LINES, then they have modified the system without knowing exactly what will happen for proper lube.




Edited by steve(ill) - 21 Jan 2022 at 6:40pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 6:47pm
is it possible that at some point in time the Allis Chalmers engine was replaced with a LeRoi engine? They are nearly identical and the LeRoi did have an oil filter as you've described. That was probably supplied by FRAM and was a generic add-on filter available back then. Same one my car and farm truck use. 
   Do you have any pictures you could post?
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JayIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 6:59pm
Following.....
sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerNan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 9:47pm
I'll try posting pictures, probably after Tuesday when back at the shop.  It will test my technical abilities for sure!  I removed the filter canister yesterday and if I remember right one line came from the side of the canister (T'd in with oil pressure guage) and ran down to a T on the lower engine block under the magneto.  Other side of this T is a small line running up to the head.  On the bottom of the canister was a line running to a fitting dumping oil into the engine side cover.  This would be where the filter base should be. Now as I think about it the whole thing seems kind of after market rather than factory.    PaulB, any way to confirm if engine is LeRoi?  I think there are some numbers in the casting on the left side.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2022 at 6:41am
That sounds right for describing the FRAM bypass filter. A picture of both sides would be the easiest for some to tell if it had a LeRoi engine. Does the exhaust manifold exit at the front or the middle? Removing the head would be the positive way. A Leroi head has a chamber the Allis head does not. I don't know the exact detail, but there was some collusion between Allis Chalmers & LeRoi at one time. I think it was Allis was building those engines for LeRoi at one time. 
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mikez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2022 at 7:25am
welcome to the forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2022 at 5:17pm
Most of the oil runs thru the hollow cam shaft and lubes internals.. Small tube come out to the filter / gauge and has a TEE that goes into the filter, and also small tube to the front end.... The filter cleans "SOME" of the oil and then dumps back to sump... If you want to try to get it going without screwing with the filter, just plug the line OUT of the filter back to sump ( then remove the filter and let the can fill up)... or take the pressure line going into the filter off and plug it.......... you can run without the filter and test motor and see what pressure you have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerNan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2022 at 6:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerNan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2022 at 7:02pm
Have several more pictures, having trouble with picture size.  Sorry, working on it...
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uploads/22752/WC8_2022-01-23_22-03-34.jpg

Hope this attempt at pictures works.  Sorry.  Filter oil return must be the small hole (1/4" or so) between the 2 mounting bolts.  If this is indeed an Allis engine I'm thinking it would be good to convert to the original factory style filter. The standard spin on filter base must mate up there.   Is there an orifice or a restrictor somewhere that meters the 15% oil flow to the filter?   I can see that it's critical it's plumbed up right.   Oil viscosity and temp must cause filtering rate to vary some.   Thinking about dropping the oil pan to clean what ever up too.  Engine number stamped on left side of block is W1231954G.  Thanks for all the info!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2022 at 10:54pm
The "original ALLIS" design relies on the spin on filter being PACKED COTTON and the mounting plate has a 1/4 inch tube up the center with an 1/8 inch orifice hole in it... Your right, that is critical.......... Years ago WIX made a paper filter that had NO RESTRICTION in it and it dumped WAY TOO MUCH OIL back to sump and a few motors failed... These days that has been fixed... You just look at the bottom of the filter and make sure it is full of PACKED COTTON..

Like mentioned above. you can just  screw all the lines together and forget the filter for now, if you want... If you have a filter dumping to sump, you need to have a psi gauge and make sure you have several pounds of pressure in the system... 15 psi is like new... It will run OK with 5 psi.... but the more the better..

That is one nasty looking plate on the motor... and that filter is HUGE... I am not familiar with that as Paul is............ but i would get rid of it NOW... and replace with the ALLIS spin on later.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2022 at 10:56pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JC-WI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 1:00am
Filter looks like off of some construction engine or truck...
cannistor has a nipple welded on the side for pressure gauge...  ... It's 'Jerry Rigged' already.  Wink   LOL
Don't worry, at a peat plant I helped at, anything I modified, one of the workers would chalk it up with that saying. LOL
 WC styled tractor, Allis engine.
  Just for a little information, there was canister filters on the earlier tractors, but the canisters were smaller  and that would go back into the early productions of the unstyled WC.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lon(MN) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 6:46am
I have all the correct parts available if you decide to return it to factory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerNan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 11:32am
Thanks for the great info everyone.  I will convert fliter back to orginal style.  I bought the WC from a neighbor a mile down the road in 1999 as he was downsizing for a move into town.  He passed couple years later. I would sure love to visit with him again.  He did tell me it belonged to his brother who in the late 40's got tetanus, developed lockjaw, collapsed in the barn and died shortly after.  I'm sort of fixing this up in their memory.  I'm sure to have more questions as the project continues.    Jerry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2022 at 7:30pm
The pictures tell me that is an Allis Chalmers engine. Someone has definitely farmerized it with that oil filer. It is a larger one than what the LeRoi engine would have had. I'm not sure, but IFFR the LeRoi engine doesn't have the removable lifter cover plate like the early Allis engines. 
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2022 at 8:18pm
That is a common bypass filter system, used on all sorts of industrial, ag, military, and heavy truck applications from mid '30's up until late '60's.  WIX still carries filter cartridges for them, and like the Allis WC/WD/WD45, they're a partial flow bypass unit.

The larger filter system 'CAN' filter more oil, and can do it slower, which is how the bypass systems had to be set up.  For farmers that used distillate fuels (it's closer to a kerosene), the larger bypass filter was a frequent consideration, because unburned distillate fuel would migrate into the oil sump, and the apparent oil level would rise, and the oil would become thin.  While a larger filter wouldn't alleviate either, it bought more time, and allowed a farmer to run an initially thicker oil, without running into filter pressurization problems.

They MAY have taken this filter kit off some other application (an irrigation boom, or a combine) and fitted it for that reason.

IF your WC has any other hints that it may have been set up as a 'dual fuel' (a tiny gasoline tank above the carb, poking through the hood), that's probably the case, but there's many cases where farmers who wanted to run less-expensive distillate ('tractor fuel') would simply readjust timing and mixture for the distillate fuel, but drip-start it on gasoline, and get it warm enough to run on the distillate without all the changeover gadgetry.

A similar, but different scenario also exists, and history may answer the question for you... During WW2, My grandfather ran his WC on wood alcohol.  He would trade much of his gasoline rations for necessary farm supplies, and use methanol distilled from wood scraps to produce something that would run in the Waterloo Boy and WC.  Methanol, being a carbohydrate fuel, doesn't have the fuel energy per gallon of gasoline or distillate, but it WOULD run the engines reliably.  The burn cycle for carbohydrates results in plenty of water vapor, which would tend to sneak past the rings and accumulate in the engine oil.  Once in, the water would settle to the bottom of the oilpan, and he had a drain petcock with a brass plug in it.  Each time he'd ready it for work, he would remove the petcock, hold a can beneath it, and drain off the water into the can... stopping as soon as there was oil coming out.  He'd dump the water, run another can and look for more water.  When it was just oil, he'd dump that back in, top it as the dipstick required, and run it.  Photos of him on his WC do NOT suggest any other filter, but IF he had a larger filter, he would have likely added another quart or two to the pan, so that filter's volume, coupled with what was in the pan and being pumped through, was plenty enough to assure that a little loss from draining water out would be insignificant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lon(MN) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 6:18am
I saw a picture of a Purolator filter in an early WC book. It looked a little like your filter set up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corbinstein Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 6:32am
If that is a "bypass" style filter setup, I wouldn't simply remove and plumb the inlet and outlet hoses together, as there needs to be some sort of RESTRICTION to prevent loss of oil pressure. You can remove it and install a restrictor of some sort in its place and Tee in a pressure gauge prior to the bypass, similar to what's on there now. 

Essentially the oil filter is part of the restriction. If you don't, most of your oil and pressure gets bypassed back to the pan. 

I learned this on a D14 that I bought cheap because it had no pressure. A quick question was answered on this forum and Lo and Behold the Previous Owner had broken off the Tube in the filter assy and lost the pressure. I simply plugged off the filter for the time being and went about my merry way. Never did properly fix it, just changed oil more often. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerNan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 6:59pm
Thanks for the interesting replies.  There is also a petcock on the side of the oil pan maybe a couple inches up from the bottom.  It kind of looks like the coolant drain petcock on the side of the engine block.  Was wondering what that was for?  It has a dipstick so shouldn't be needed for oil level (like the Farmall M)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jvin248 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2022 at 4:28pm
.

I think the WC has both a dipstick and the M-method of filling to the second drain.

.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeM(GA) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2022 at 5:14pm
from the owners manual


Allis Express North Georgia
41 WC,48 UC Cane,7-G's,
Ford 345C TLB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2022 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by JerNan JerNan wrote:

Thanks for the interesting replies.  There is also a petcock on the side of the oil pan maybe a couple inches up from the bottom.  It kind of looks like the coolant drain petcock on the side of the engine block.  Was wondering what that was for?  It has a dipstick so shouldn't be needed for oil level (like the Farmall M)
 
As Joe pointed out, when they burned distillate it diluted the crankcase badly so frequent drain down/top off and that's how you gaged it. I think most older tractors have the pan drains. Think there's 2 on SIL's Super C Farmall. HMMM now that I think about it,I don't think that S/C has a dipstick. ERGO the full/add check the oil level petcocks plus it's new enough it probably was always just gasoline.


Edited by SteveM C/IL - 28 Jan 2022 at 9:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2022 at 11:11pm
Pan petcock?  Yep- Your engine was set up for distillate fuel operation... remember what I said above:

Originally posted by DaveKamp DaveKamp wrote:

For farmers that used distillate fuels (it's closer to a kerosene), the larger bypass filter was a frequent consideration, because unburned distillate fuel would migrate into the oil sump, and the apparent oil level would rise, and the oil would become thin.  While a larger filter wouldn't alleviate either, it bought more time, and allowed a farmer to run an initially thicker oil, without running into filter pressurization problems.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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