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StewartMD 
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 Topic: Update on CA with knock
Posted: 09 Jan 2012 at 9:34am |
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This weekend I finally had time to tear into the CA engine. I first checked the valves according to my manual and all were about .010 while the engine was still warm. Then I dropped the pan and confirmed that it is the wrist pin that is loose. I believe now I need to pull the head, take off the crank cap, and pull that piston and connecting rod. Anyone have any advice or suggestions? I've never been into an engine before so this is completely new for me. Can I find nice "used" parts to replace this? Should I check anything else while I have it apart? Thanks in advance for the help.
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Bill Long
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Posted: 09 Jan 2012 at 9:43am |
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You know, when you get that close, depending on finances, you may want to consider a rebuild. I don't know the prices of a motor kit now but if you have gone that far it is not that much more to replace sleeves, rings, pistons, and wrist pins. That way you will have an updated engine that will last for quite some time.
Pop used to say if you have you hands on it and it has some age on it replace it. We always put a new clutch in when we had reason to pull an engine.
Let us know what you do.
Good Luck!
Bill Long
ps: Look forward to seeing you at our Mid Atlantic Allis Chalmers Club Meeting in February.
Edited by Bill Long - 09 Jan 2012 at 9:45am
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StewartMD
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Posted: 09 Jan 2012 at 10:44am |
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Thanks Bill. I will price it out to see what it would cost. If it is affordable I might go ahead with it. I'm looking forward to meeting you at the meeting in February.
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8030, 8010, 220, 185, 160, D-17, WD, Unstyled WC, CA, G, 20-35, Gleaner E
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StewartMD
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 7:00am |
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Bump
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Charlie175
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 8:36am |
If only that cylinder is bad then you can buy 1 sleeve kit (About $100) that will have all the parts you need (Well you will need the gaskets for the pan, head)
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Charlie
'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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Charlie175
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 8:38am |
I forgot to add that working on the 125 series engines is pretty easy.
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Charlie
'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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StewartMD
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 9:36am |
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Thanks Charlie for the help. Do you know the best place to buy 1? I haven't called the local dealer yet. Thanks.
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TREVMAN
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 10:20am |
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Scrape the money together and do an engine kit, you wont be sorry, Trev.
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StewartMD
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 10:26am |
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Trev, If I do an engine kit what all components would you suggest replacing? How much machining work would you expect? This tractor doesn't see much use on the farm. Thanks.
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8030, 8010, 220, 185, 160, D-17, WD, Unstyled WC, CA, G, 20-35, Gleaner E
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Charlie175
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 11:05am |
a 125 overhaul kit (inframe) includes everything you need for about $400. If you do the crank bearings that will add another $100 or so. While you have it apart you might take the head to a machine shop who will check it and replace any valves/seals as needed. This can be $200.
It's up to you and what the intended use is. If only light use for a few hours a year then I would not put a full kit in it. If used more than that then it would be best to freshen the motor up as it will last another lifetime.
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Charlie
'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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StewartMD
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 12:00pm |
Charlie, We don't use it much on the farm due to it's size. I do plow the garden with it, and plow snow at my house with it, occasionaly we pull the wood trailer, or ted hay with it. I would say it gets around 40 hours of use a year. Is there a way to check to see how worn my engine is? It doesn't use any oil, doesn't smoke, has always run strong. Thanks.
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8030, 8010, 220, 185, 160, D-17, WD, Unstyled WC, CA, G, 20-35, Gleaner E
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Charlie175
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 1:07pm |
You can do a compression test with a pressure gauge to get an idea of how each cylinder is. Otherwise when you pull the head to work on that one cylinder check out the rest and see if they are scored.
If it was mine I would just fix that cylinder and go about my business.
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Charlie
'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 1:20pm |
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Plastigage is the handiest way to check the bearings but it takes good feeler gauges and skill to test the sleeves for wear with simple tools. Else a good dial caliper or big micrometer to check the pistons for wear with an inside micrometer or hole gauges and the external micrometer or dial gauge to check the sleeves for wear. Then you can decide on replace or not. If you pull sleeves, new O-rings are in order to get new or old sealed for the long run. Antifreeze in the oil kills mains and rods rapidly.
Gerald J..
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StewartMD
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 2:52pm |
Are the compression gauges on Ebay ok for what little bit of use I will have for them?
Once I determine the compression....what is a good range to be in?
Gerald, I will ask my dad to see if he has anything at work to check these things. He is a manual machinist but his company doesn't do engine work.
I am definitely a rookie but I gotta learn sometime. Thanks for everyones input so far. It is very much appreciated.
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8030, 8010, 220, 185, 160, D-17, WD, Unstyled WC, CA, G, 20-35, Gleaner E
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 3:55pm |
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Plastigage should be at any auto parts store. Standard bearing measuring scheme for more than 3/4 century.
You'll need to know bore range to find the micrometers and bore gauges in the machinest's tool chest. They probably are t here.
A micrometer or dial gauge is handy on rod bearings to check them for being round, they can were more on the side where the power stroke pushes, then no amount of bearing replacement will tighten them up, you have to get the crank ground to cure that rod knock.
Gerald J.
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 3:59pm |
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Compression usually 80 to 120 pounds, throttle open all the other plugs out, fully charged battery, watch how it comes up each stroke and the best check is how well the cylinders match for the steps and the maximum pressure. The compression gauge I've been using for about 50 years I don't know where I got it.
The simplest compression gauge is essentially a standard pressure gauge with a bit of plumbing. It has a shrader (tire) valve to act as a check valve and a fitting with a tapered rubber to fit in the spark plug hole. Not an exotic tool, but very handy for engine diagnosis.
Gerald J.
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Orange Blood
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 5:55pm |
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One thing to watch out for, is if you only do one sleeve and piston, make darn good and sure the piston weighs nearly the same as all the rest do. It is not extremely critical, since these engines don't turn the RPMs of modern day engines, but I wouldn't want one in there that is out by more than a couple of ounces. Just my two cents.
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TREVMAN
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 9:09pm |
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Stewart, a compression guage can be found at any auto parts store, they are not expensive. I dont expect you'd need to do any machining. Get yourself a manual. Plastigauge your mains and con rods, its not hard to do just time consuming. Google it, you'll find videos. Get your specs for tolerances, add the difference and you'll find the bearing size you need, it may just need new standard bearings. Ive never had any luck patching one cylinder in an engine, usually sooner rather than later Ive been back in the engine to do the rest of the engine properly, getting to do twice the work. The head, I would lap the valves and replace the seals, of course check for broken springs and put them back where they came from, you can do it youself, again chech youtube. There lots of help on this site, good luck, Trev.
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SteveC(NS)
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 11:33am |
Stewart, how did you determine that "it is the wrist pin that is loose"? If you have not yet removed the head that would be difficult. Which wrist pin is it, there are 4. If you mean "rod bearing" then a rebuild is indicated. A compression test may not show a loose wrist pin or rod bearing but it would indicate work has to be done. If you have a low compression reading on one cyl. that may indicate piston/ring wear but it could also point to a valve leak. an exhaust valve leak could sound like a knock. If you squirt oil in the low reading cyl. spark plug hole and re-do the comp. test and the comp. goes up it means cyl/ring/piston wear and a rebuild is indicated. If it is still low all you nead is head work.
Edited by SteveC(NS) - 12 Jan 2012 at 11:34am
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StewartMD
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 12:29pm |
Thanks for everyones input so far.
Steve, I knew it was the 2nd cylinder from the front because I pulled each spark plug off at a time and the knock stopped on that one. I pulled the pan, reached up inside. The rod appears tight on the crank but I can move it back and forth at the wrist pin. The head is still on the tractor. Thanks for the information. That will be very helpful.
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Goose
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 12:32pm |
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I am considering a complete engine rebuild. When I look at the kits, you have to order it with the correct oversize of the rod/main bearings. How do you do this unless you tear it down, measure it and then order the kit?
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JeffMOnt
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 12:38pm |
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You really have to use a micrometer on the crank, so you would need to pull the pan and pull the caps it best anyways to pull it down and check to make sure there is no scoring on the crank anyways. You never really know if any machine work was done on the engine before if you bought it used. Engine rebuild kits are the best way to go. Did one a few years ago on my D14.
Edited by JeffMOnt - 12 Jan 2012 at 12:40pm
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 1:09pm |
A leak down test can also be run using compressed air into cylinder and listen at both intake and crankcase vent to see where the air is leaking out. A compression test is mainly to see overall engine condition but also difference between cylinders and to measure any disparity between cylinders. A engine with lower compression but even across all may be completely serviceable for many years yet.
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CTuckerNWIL
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 4:36pm |
 Goose wrote:
I am considering a complete engine rebuild. When I look at the kits, you have to order it with the correct oversize of the rod/main bearings. How do you do this unless you tear it down, measure it and then order the kit? |
Remove the crankshaft and measure for size and roundness. If out of tolerance either way, it should be ground. Once it is, you order the size bearings you need. If you try to measure it in the tractor and don't find an out of round condition that exits, you might be ordering a kit for something that won't work. Maybe the crank was ground before and needs it again. You can't buy .040 under bearings that I know of. Find out what you have before you spend money on it. JMO
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SteveC(NS)
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 4:49pm |
Stewart, OK, I never thought of that. Tomorrow I'll go to the shop, flip over the engine on it's stand and see if I can get similar movement indicating my knock may also be caused by wrist pin problems. If I find a bum wrist pin/piston I'll pull the head and change just the piston and wrist pin (I doubt if the rod is bad, they clamp on the wrist pin). You'll have to make you're own decision on doing just that, or going the full rebuild route. Let's keep each other, and others informed.
Edited by SteveC(NS) - 12 Jan 2012 at 4:51pm
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StewartMD
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 7:10am |
Thanks again for the help.
Steve, I wasn't able to work on it this weekend as I have been really sick. I did pick up a compression tester and plastigage. Dad also brought home a set of inside mics and 3-4" outside mics. Hopefully I get a chance one evening to work on it.
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SteveC(NS)
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 3:31pm |
Stewart, I didn't do much on mine either. I did flip it and tried to see if I'd get any movement out of a piston. I shoulda done a compression test on it before swaping it out of the tractor. We have some mild days coming up and I'll heat up the shop and pull the head and start plastiguaging things. I think Ill pull each piston as I go through it and then I'll really see if there's any wrist pin slop in one of 'em. Steve
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GregLawlerMinn
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Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 8:58pm |
Stewart When one opens up a 60 +/- year old engine they need to thoroughly check it out before deciding what to do. These engines have seen countless numbers of heating/cooling cycles (and some abuse along the way) and their age is showing. I had a CA engine with no knocks and decent compression (100 psi) and no blue smoke. It started and ran good; just lost power when mowing grass, so I decided to rebuild the engine this winter. Pulled the engine and dissassembled it and discovered: 1. Block was shot; open cracks on all the webs between the cylinders (not really visible until after the sleeves were pulled and the block was tanked) and it would have required 0.050" of machining to sguare the deck. Junked the block and obtained a repacement that was decked and counterbored for the new sleeves. 2. The bearings I could read had 0.020 marked on them, so I assumed it had been machined 0.020 U/S at one time. I plastigaged the bearings and had 0.0015 to 0.0020 clearance on all the bearings. A neighbor with micrometers measured the crank and told me it was true so I ordered a rebuild kit with 0.020 U/S bearings. When I assembled the engine with the new bearings, I discovered the the crank was machined 0.020 on all mains and 3 cranks, 0.040 on the 4th one (so much for neighbors with mics). I junked the crank and obtained another and had it machined to accept the new 0.020 U/S bearings that I ordered with the rebuild kit. 3. The cam bearings were junk; replaced them with new ones. 4. Had the head checked; 3 seperate cracks into the water jacket (water would leak to the top of the head) and exhaust valves were junk and intake valves were marginal. Junked the head and obtained a replacement and had it rebuilt (new valves, springs, guides, frost plugs, decked, etc). 5. The timing gear on the camshaft had several broken teeth (govenor weight failure in the past?). Obtained a replacement gear. 6. The threads on one of the valve rockers adjusters was wobbled out and the adjuster had worked loose. Obtained a replacement. This is the 6th CA engine I have been into and it was by far the worst (Tight web cracks, machining the deck to square it up and counterbore it for the new sleeves, worn cam bushings, worn valve guides, bent pushrods, bad valves, are commonplace). It ended up that the only parts I used from the old engine was the connecting rods, cam, lifters, and pushrods. It will also be the most expensive rehab I have done; however, it will be right come next summer's mowing season. Pay heed to the great advice provided; however, before you order out parts; have your engine thoroughly inspected by someone who kows what they are doing 1st so you know ahead of time what the eventual cost will be. Rule of thumb: A rebuild kit, gaskets, quality machine work, and a quality head rebuild cost will be in the neighborhood of $300 per hole, then add whatever replacement parts you may need.
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SteveC(NS)
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Posted: 18 Jan 2012 at 7:23pm |
Stewart, I took off the head today and couldn't discern any wrist pin play. So I popped a couple of rod caps and although I still couldn't find any wrist pin play I was appalled at the state of the crank journals, they looked like they were rust pitted in places or a bad weld up/regrind had been done. I had picked up some plastiguage but I'll save it for the reground crank (I have 2 in inventory, long story). Long story longer I'll be doing a complete lower end rebuild. Once I tear it all down I'll decide if I go for A: new rings or B: new rings and liners. The head seems pretty good , no blatant valve leakage, kinda black, guess it's been runnin a little rich.
Edited by SteveC(NS) - 18 Jan 2012 at 7:25pm
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SteveC(NS)
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Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 9:32am |
Just confirmed with Dick L that the 3 7/16" pistons I have in my CA that knocked aren't stock compression. They appear to be aftermarket pistons that bear an embossed arrow pointing to the front of the block. They come up to about .032" from the top of the block and I have calculated the compression to be about 8.25 to 1. If anyone has knowledge of pistons like this I'd like more info on them. The good news is, if they are 8.25-1, I don't have to pursue any other means to increase compression. My remaining questions are could the higher compression be the cause of the knock? Could an ignition timing adjustment help to eliminate it? Could running a little leaner help cut down pre-ignition, if that is causing the knock? The combustion chambers and piston tops were kinda black. Would a slightly larger carb help lean it out, is such an animal available.
Edited by SteveC(NS) - 20 Jan 2012 at 9:33am
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