unleaded gas vs ethanol

Dont always let the 87 fuels fool you.They have to be 87 dont mean they cant be over. The local caseys had a load of gas come in and some guys did have problems with newer chainsaws and when they pulled the gas at the station they found it to be 41 percent  ethanol, this was back when gas was high and corn was cheap so the blenders could buy it cheap. As for burning up small engines I was always under the impression that at times the alcohol in the gas could thin the oil mix to much and seperate it from bonding with the gas. A commercial logging supplier out of Washington  state used to sell  an additive to prevent the oil from seperating I dont know if it worked or not.

mdtractormechanic wrote:   Just curious, what's your background, your area of training?   If you're having a problem with me just say so.

For what little it's worth, I've been a member of both the Society of Automotive Engineers and the Society of Agricultural Engineers for over 40 years.  During that time, I've also served on a number of the standards making committees for these organizations.   I started my professional career as a test engineer and have correctly analyzed and corrected many problems over the years.  The next time you look at a 6000, or 8000, or 4W Series AC tractor, know that I was the engineering manager for those tractors.  I also do most of my own "wrench" work including engine overhauls, so I know the practical side of things also.

My problem is when people spread bad information or make mountains out of mole hills.  Mechanics have been know to do that.  My first post on the subject of ethanol/gasoline pointed out the possible problems with E10-------problems that can indeed occur under certain circumstances.  However, the frequency of these "problems" gets blown out of all proportion to reality by posts such as you made.  If the problems were really frequent, I would have run into it by now with my various equipment (most of mine is old) after using E10 (and storing it) exclusively for 12+ years.

Someone with an old gas tractor shouldn't be too concerned about using E10 unless his fuel system is badly varnished or his fuel lines are in poor condition.  If he is concerned about those things, just replace the fuel line now and add a filter to the line.  And it's not a good idea to let a tractor sit for long periods of time with an almost empty fuel tank-------whether it has "pure" gas or E10 in it.


Edited by 427435 - 15 Sep 2011 at 12:08pm

mdtractormechanic wrote: 427435 wrote: mdtractormechanic wrote:    KY, ethanol absorbs water and that is the number 1 problem with longterm storage. I believe the shelf life is 3 to 4 months. Even if the tank was water free it absorbs the moisture from the air. That's the nature of alcohol. We used alcohol in diesel machines to help burn off the water in the tanks. Be carefull of additives that claim to 'remove' water from the tank. You take umbrage at my comment about mechanics tales, but using alcohol in a diesel engine to get rid of water is an excellent example.  Mechanics have been know to do things, based on word of mouth instead of actual technical knowledge--------things that can go badly. The alcohol or ethanol based product we used was made by Drydene and called 'Drydene fuel/fuel line treatment for gas and diesel'. I still have a old container of it. Just curious, what's your background, your area of training? I had to do a 4 year apprenticeship through Caterpillar and pass to be called a mechanic. In subsequent years I had to travel to various schools on the east coast for product update training. I'm trying to figure out why you are so down on mechanics. Yes, there are some bad ones out there. And yes, I do take umbrage of your 'mechanics tales' and 'based on word of mouth instead of actual technical knowledge' comments. If you're having a problem with me just say so.

MTD, not sure if your question was directed at me, but in case you're wondering, I hold an Associates degree in auto repair from Hawkeye Community College in Waterloo Ia obtained in 89, ASE Master cetrification with Advanced level certification in gasoline and diesel engine performance, Ford Certified Engine Master and GM certified Duramax Diesel.

Brian Jasper co. Ia wrote: MTD, not sure if your question was directed at me, but in case you're wondering, I hold an Associates degree in auto repair from Hawkeye Community College in Waterloo Ia obtained in 89, ASE Master cetrification with Advanced level certification in gasoline and diesel engine performance, Ford Certified Engine Master and GM certified Duramax Diesel. I could paraphrase from both Ford and GM service info, but suffice it to say, putting alcohol in a diesel system is not good practice, so says Ford and GM. Seeing as how I'm kinda cheap, I have used E10 fuel in everything I've owned since E10 has had a lower per gallon price (20 years or so). Both personal and professional experience say ethanol works fine. It does spoil faster than straight gasoline and it used to deteriate 'rubber' fuel components. Since the introduction of ethanol manufacturers of fuel system parts have changed materials to make them compatible with ethanol.

Actually Brian, it wasn't directed at you but the guy who dislikes mechanics. This whole thing has gotten way over blow. All I was trying to do is show that in some cases there can be damage. Not an epidenmic. However, homeowner's equipment does not suffer anywhere the conditions of farm and industrial equipment and that is to what I was speaking.  

jeesh. the man has prob forgot more than most people who turn wrenches know. you questioned his background- his is excellent. what is yours?

mdtractormechanic wrote: Brian Jasper co. Ia wrote: MTD, not sure if your question was directed at me, but in case you're wondering, I hold an Associates degree in auto repair from Hawkeye Community College in Waterloo Ia obtained in 89, ASE Master cetrification with Advanced level certification in gasoline and diesel engine performance, Ford Certified Engine Master and GM certified Duramax Diesel. I could paraphrase from both Ford and GM service info, but suffice it to say, putting alcohol in a diesel system is not good practice, so says Ford and GM. Seeing as how I'm kinda cheap, I have used E10 fuel in everything I've owned since E10 has had a lower per gallon price (20 years or so). Both personal and professional experience say ethanol works fine. It does spoil faster than straight gasoline and it used to deteriate 'rubber' fuel components. Since the introduction of ethanol manufacturers of fuel system parts have changed materials to make them compatible with ethanol. Actually Brian, it wasn't directed at you but the guy who dislikes mechanics. This whole thing has gotten way over blow. All I was trying to do is show that in some cases there can be damage. Not an epidenmic. However, homeowner's equipment does not suffer anywhere the conditions of farm and industrial equipment and that is to what I was speaking.   As for what Ford and GM says, Caterpillar said different. One once to ten gallons of fuel using Drydene fuel treat (alcohol based) didn't cause damage.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing....

Okay, now that everyone's throwing bricks...

#1 killer of ENGINES showed up in SE Iowa Picker's post...  and I don't see where anyone caught it...  Ethanol and Methanol... are CARBOHYDRATES.  Gasoline is a formulation consisting of HYDROCARBONS.

Both can evaporate.  We all know what varnish means... What most people don't understand, is what that 'varnish' is made of.  It's the result of the lighter hydrocarbon compounds evaporating, and leaving the remaining (low volatility stuff) and all the 'impurities' (including any erosion product from fuel lines, tank, etc).  This is pretty familiar 'goo' to all of us.

As many have noted, carbohydrates are hygroscopic.  That means- they absorb moisture... and like anything else that absorbs moisture, it can become saturated (accepting no more), and finally, supersaturated (additional absorption based on temperature elevation).

So what does this mean?  It means that when you put ethanol or methanol in gasoline, it may 'combine', but it doesn't really 'mix'.

Here's a fun experiment:

Get a GLASS pickle jar... with a good, tight sealing lid.  Make sure it's clean and dry.

Fill it to about 2/3rds from your favorite gasoline can of yesterday's E-10.
Pour in about a cup of tap water.
Close the lid tight...  Shake it up good.
Put it in a dark corner shelf in your shop.

Come back in a month, and bring a flashlight.
Don't pick it up... but SHINE THE LIGHT in it, and look at the LAYERS.

Bottom layer:  Water.
Second layer:  Water and ethanol
Third layer: Ethanol
Top layer: Gasoline.

The mixture STRATIFIES.  it settles out.

(by the way, look up Specific Gravity, you'll find that a good figure for gasoline is around 737 or so.  Ethanols, around 789)

Now, if you look at the CHEMISTRY involved in combustion, you'll find that the combustion attitude of carbohydrates, and the flame rate curves, stoichiometry, brake-specific heat output... all those numbers are totally different from HYDROCARBON fuels.  (While it is physically more 'dense' than gasoline, but Ethanol has lower brake energy, on account of FEWER bonds to be broken.)

This ain't a major sin, but when you have water and fuel mixed, it's a mathematical mess.  When you mix hydrocarbons and carbohydrates and water, it's an incredible nightmare.

But the REAL DAMAGE... and I mean the REAL damage here...

Is when you go to a fuel retailer that mebbie turns over... one 5000-gallon load of E10 blend in say... six weeks.

Why?    Because you're pumping from just off the bottom of the tank.

Think about your pickle jar here.  The first layer is water.  Doesn't burn... bad deal.  Second layer... water and  ethanol-  miserable.  Okay, well, when the load is delivered, these two 'layers' frequently find their way to minimization through various filtration and centrifugal separation techniques... but some places (and you know which ones) are pretty lax about emptying out the fuel-water separators... (because it's an EPA-regulated process!)

But when you get to the layer that's ALL ETHANOL, you end up with what SE IA Picker noted... but usually quite a bit worse... like... areas of 100% ethanol.

See, the doom-stories of ethanol blends are out there, and many have merit, however, the GENUINE PROBLEM isn't with running 10% ethanol blend, it's what occurs to the fuel when you're not using it enough to keep the supply fresh and UNSETTLED.

I'm not about to argue one side or the other (for or against fuel blends)... it's a moot situation at the consumer level- you get what you can buy, simply because the choice is frequently the determining factor of what you buy.  I'll also point out that during the great depression and WW2, my grandfather and his neighbors all distilled methanol and ethanol to get solvents and fuels for his farming processes and machinery, and traded his gasoline rations to get other necessary supplies... and it burned fine in their engines, as long as everything was set up within reason.  One advantage was, though... it was always fresh... no distribution chain, no long-term storage... just don't DRINK it.

The trick to keeping fuel systems clean, is to keep clean fuel moving through it.  Doesn't matter if it's a chainsaw, motorcycle, tractor, fighter-jet, or ocean freighter.  Parking 'em is the worst thing you can do, and the only combat measure, is running the gas out of 'em, scrubbin' 'em out... and running them regularly. 

When in doubt, dump it out.


Edited by DaveKamp - 15 Sep 2011 at 8:06pm

Yep, keeping fresh fuel is the overall best solution.

I'll bet, that since you're a boater (isn't there a Minnesota law that requires you to own a boat to be a resident??), that you do what most every other good boater does, and always store by filling the tank...  hence, keeping the condensable airspace to a minimum...  I do, and of course, it helps to store 'em where the humidity is lower.

BTW... I've got an MCM  250 Chev in my 17' Sea-Ray... but it's FAR from stock...  Used to have the 120 four, now it's 6-cyl EFI... pretty lumpy cam... 307 flattop pistons, pink rods... and some other 'fun'... quite a sleeper...

DaveKamp wrote: Yep, keeping fresh fuel is the overall best solution. I'll bet, that since you're a boater (isn't there a Minnesota law that requires you to own a boat to be a resident??), that you do what most every other good boater does, and always store by filling the tank...  hence, keeping the condensable airspace to a minimum...  I do, and of course, it helps to store 'em where the humidity is lower. BTW... I've got an MCM  250 Chev in my 17' Sea-Ray... but it's FAR from stock...  Used to have the 120 four, now it's 6-cyl EFI... pretty lumpy cam... 307 flattop pistons, pink rods... and some other 'fun'... quite a sleeper...

A man after my own heart.  My boat is a 1977 18' aluminum Sylvan that had a 4 cylinder, 120 hp Chevy engine in it that I bought back in 1980.  I pulled that engine and put in the 6 cylinder 165 hp Chevy engine.  Haven't done any hot-rodding as I occasionally troll for salmon on Lake Michigan------need a nice slow, steady idle for that.  In fact, the increase in power and torque makes it a little scary to run as the boat doesn't have much of a V hull and is narrow.  The hole boat torques over when you open the throttle!!

AC WD45 wrote: 43 John Deere B I had all but refused to run on the 15% ethonol. Always misses about every 2 beats when it ran it. Started using StaBil to kill the ethonol, ran like it was new.

AC WD45 wrote: 427435 wrote: AC WD45 wrote: 43 John Deere B I had all but refused to run on the 15% ethonol. Always misses about every 2 beats when it ran it. Started using StaBil to kill the ethonol, ran like it was new. Stabil doesn't kill the ethanol------it just keeps the gas from going bad.  You probably had some water in the tank and got it flushed out with the ethanol.  Where did you get E15???? It's all over around town thanks to tree huggers. I go to Speed Way to get my gas now because the other two newer stations sell it.

Are you sure it's E15 and not E10??  I've never seen that anywhere-----around here it's either E85 for the flex fuel vehicles or E10 for everything else.