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Rad21 
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Joined: 26 Jul 2019
Location: Kansas
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 Topic: Tractor suddenly won’t run a hydraulic rake
Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 12:04pm |
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I’ve got a 7010 and 7045, both black belly power directors. Both have been great hay tractors.
Last year I filled up the pto with Orschelns 303 hydraulic fluid and on both tractors, and they both quit turning a Vermeer r23 hydraulic basket rake. I can use the hydraulics on the front end loader so I’m assuming I’m building pressure but no volume. I received a letter from orschelns about a recall on their 303 hydraulic fluid.
I have repair manuals for both tractors. I drained fluid and changed filters on both tractors and still won’t run this rake. Before I tear into them I was hoping for some advice on what I should be looking for as the problem. I put good hydraulic fluid back in and still won’t run the rake so apparently something has gone wrong. I’m mainly asking to see if maybe a check valve or spring could be a simple fix before I start ordering pumps, etc trying to fix the problem. If anyone could help point me in the right direction as to where to start I would really appreciate it. Thanks for reading.
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DrAllis
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 12:22pm |
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I'm guessing the rake has a problem. Maybe the couplers on the hose ends.
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Jim.ME
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 12:29pm |
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You don't say if you are running the loader off the remotes, but I am going to guess you are not. Check out both sides of the remote couplings, sometimes they wear or have other issues so they don't open to pass fluid. Try hooking something else to the tractor remotes and see if that equipment operates. You tried operating the rake with another tractor so it may be just a hose coupling on the rake not opening, since it didn't work on either tractor. Does the rake have a flow control to regulate speed? If so try adjusting it. Make some simple checks before ordering parts.
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Rad21
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Location: Kansas
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 1:09pm |
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Thanks for the replies so far. I do run the front loader with the back remotes. I have a hydraulic loading bale trailer I run with these tractors. Basic hydraulic cylinders on the trailer but it does have an orbit motor to unload (push) the bales off and it runs that just fine. I’m honestly not sure if there is a flow control on the rake, I’m assuming there is a non adjustable flow control to control surge but I’ve literally never had to put a wrench on it so I’ve never looked at it in detail. Our friend used the rake with his John Deere and had no problem. I didn’t know if the oil cavitated and maybe caused a problem with a seal or something and is leaking by?
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 1:37pm |
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if the loader works with the rear couplings, then seems the tractor and couplings are OK... Still points toward the coupling on the rake or hose on the rake ? When did your buddy use it last ?
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Rad21
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 8:02pm |
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He used it about 2 weeks after it quit on me. It will turn it with zero resistance but once any hay touches it, it would stall. Before, I could rake 4+ tons/acre sorghum Sudan grass.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 8:16pm |
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I'm having a hard time believing BOTH tractors have a problem at the same time, when they operate other hydraulic equipment just fine.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 8:23pm |
Rad, i think most are thinking the same thing... Hard to believe BOTH tractors failed about the same time... The rake works on another tractor, so it is OK... Your loader works on the tractor... SO ? Are you just raising the loader empty or does it actually lift a load at normal speed ? ........... what changes between putting the rake on BUDDYS tractor and connecting to YOUR tractors ? What do BOTH tractors share with the rake ?
The 303 "CAN" cause pump problems, but just seems like too much concidence that BOTH tractors have the same problem..
------------------- Fluids that are blended with line flush oil may contain some residual additives from engine oils, automatic transmission fluids or gear oils. Some fluids can contain a mix of all of these additives. This often results in a low viscosity index, high pour point and extremely high Brookfield viscosities (i.e., poor low-temperature properties). Fluids that do not flow well over wide temperature ranges can cause premature pump and equipment failure. Lubrizol’s testing of 303 fluids has shown an average 25 percent viscosity increase over 100 hours of measuring oxidative stability. In other words, these fluids have been shown to thicken during extended use, which can result in many problems, including erratic or sluggish hydraulic response due to deposit formation and strain on the hydraulic system. Hydraulic pumps contain yellow metals; therefore, copper strip performance and copper corrosion are important measures to consider as they protect against metal fatigue. The inferior performance that 303 fluids have exhibited during testing is an indicator of reduced pump output and, ultimately, hydraulic system failure. The use of 303 fluids can also result in severe wear and ridging of gear parts. Most 303 fluids fail the L-20 hypoid gear test, which measures the fluid’s load-carrying capacity, after only the first 83 minutes of a 40-hour test. J20C also added the Allison C-4 test requirement, which most 303 fluids fail, resulting in seal leakage or failure. Across the board, testing has shown that yellow bucket fluids that contain low-quality base oils and improperly balance, or inadequate additive systems simply do not deliver the performance level required to adequately protect equipment in the field — whether old or new.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 8:34pm |
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Preliminary test on both tractors is a 3,000 psi gauge connected to the TEE on the side of the PTO valve. Remove the JIC cap that is already there and get proper fittings to connect the gauge to this tee so you can see it sitting in the seat. Engine running at half throttle or better the gauge should read 300 to 600 psi. When you activate any remote valve to raise without a hose plugged in the couplers (dead head), the pressure should read 2,500 psi. This is the first thing to do.
Edited by DrAllis - 27 Sep 2021 at 8:36pm
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KJCHRIS
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Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 10:29pm |
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There's info about the suit on 303 oil in YELLOW pails in the Sept. '21 issue of Successful Farming. As I don't have any I didn't study it.
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DiyDave
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Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 4:43am |
 Rad21 wrote:
Thanks for the replies so far. I do run the front loader with the back remotes. I have a hydraulic loading bale trailer I run with these tractors. Basic hydraulic cylinders on the trailer but it does have an orbit motor to unload (push) the bales off and it runs that just fine. I’m honestly not sure if there is a flow control on the rake, I’m assuming there is a non adjustable flow control to control surge but I’ve literally never had to put a wrench on it so I’ve never looked at it in detail. Our friend used the rake with his John Deere and had no problem. I didn’t know if the oil cavitated and maybe caused a problem with a seal or something and is leaking by? |
JD tractor gave it the hydraulic clap? 
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Rad21
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Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 2:50pm |
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Trust me I feel dumb telling the story and asking for help. I know it sounds made up that it happened to both tractors back to back. As brought up, there is a lawsuit with orschelns 303 and I did receive a letter in the mail about it since my farm is registered at orschelns and that’s when I was buying the oil. That’s why I thought maybe that oil had maybe cavitated (or something else) and knocked a seal or something out causing it to leak by or causing a check valve/pressure relief to stick open. Loaded 30 trailer loads of hay just fine with the front loader. And maybe I need to flush the system out again and it will work, which will really make me feel dumb. Anyhow, I will proceed to tear it down shortly and will get back on with any results. Thanks everyone for taking the time from your day.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 3:25pm |
Rad... if the loader uses the same hydraulic pump, the same hoses to the rear end, the same quick connectors... and it WORKS.. what do you expect to find wrong with the pump ? ........... I know you said the buddy used the rake, but did he use DIFFERENT hose or coupler to his tractor than you use on the rake ? ........ Would be hard to beleive TWO tractors had problems... but your saying the LOADER/ PUMP / COUPLING on the tractor are all working..
buddies John Deere "might"use a different coupler and he changed fittings on the rake hose ?? ..... or maybe he changed the hose and the coupler ?? ... thats where i would look for a problem.
Edited by steve(ill) - 29 Sep 2021 at 3:30pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 3:31pm |
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OR.... maybe the coupler on the hose is just BAD now... I would change that coupler and try the rake.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 6:16pm |
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"Anyhow, I will proceed to tear it down shortly and will get back on with any results." Just what in Sam Hill are you going to "tear down" ??
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Tbone95
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Posted: 30 Sep 2021 at 7:21am |
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Depending on which John Deere (if you said it, I missed it), there would possibly be adapters to go from the older Deere tapered style coupler to the straight Pioneer style coupler. Really no matter though, as regardless of what style, it could be such that there's enough of a mate attaching to the Deere that it works, where for your tractors it won't. It's a different connection. Would be super cheap and easy to try new couplings on the ends of the hoses of the rake, or even take them off a cylinder you have on something else, versus tearing something apart.
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