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Tractor died, won't start.

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jaybmiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tractor died, won't start.
    Posted: 27 Nov 2015 at 6:08am
It might be 'show and tell' time ! Please post a picture of the genny/regulator and the 'ballast resistor(back of left dash are) as  Brian might be onto something. This is one of those hard to 'long distance' troubleshoot problems that a picture could be worth more than 1000 words !

since I can't get my tractor into my garage I have some free time.....
Jay

3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Brian Jasper co. Ia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2015 at 7:06pm
Check the battery terminal at the regulator with a test light. I'm betting you find no voltage.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Brian Jasper co. Ia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2015 at 7:03pm
If you short the field terminal on a Ford generator or alternator to ground, you'll weld every time. If you grounded the field terminal, and didn't burn anything, you didn't have a Ford charging system.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 2:09pm
You may have a resistance somewhere else in the wiring and by shorting the resistor you compensated for that resistance. I would still check ALL wiring between the battery and the ignition switch and the resistor. Go ahead and put a new resistance in, but be prepared to check the wiring if the resistor doesn't fix the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 1:10pm
I'll take a look at it.
But like I said, I've done it before with no ill effect. I've even found it on generator testing charts; ground the field to max out generator output. 

And keep in mind the switch and wiring harness are fine. I got it to run by jumpering across the resistor. 


Edited by CrestonM - 25 Nov 2015 at 1:17pm
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Brian Jasper co. Ia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 12:05pm
You quite likely burnt a wire somewhere between the regulator and the battery. One thing I see here that everybody missed is Ford generators are backwards from everything else. Our A-C's with a Delco generator control the field on the GROUND side of the circuit. That's why when you ground the F terminal on a Delco, it gives maximum charge. Ford on the other hand chose to control the SUPPLY side. So when you grounded the Field to the chassis, you created a direct short to ground and something couldn't take it. My guess is the ignition switch or a splice in the harness. You've probably welded the points in the regulator too.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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CrestonM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 12:00pm
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Stan IL&TN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stan IL&TN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 11:53am
oops I was slow on the typing.  Good deal.
1957 WD45 dad's first AC

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 11:42am
That's what I did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stan IL&TN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 11:41am
Just use a jumper and bypass the resistor and see if it will start.  Don't keep it that way as it may overheat the coil but for a test it's quick and will tell you if the resistor is bad or not.
1957 WD45 dad's first AC

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1956 F40 Ferguson
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CrestonM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 11:33am
Originally posted by CTuckerNWIL CTuckerNWIL wrote:

It sounds WAY simpler to me, if you have voltage at the resistor and NOT after the  resistor, just replace the resistor. 

That's what I thought, and that's what I'm going to do.

I conducted a test just now by jumpering across the resistor with a piece of wire. Hit the starter, and in characteristic Ford fashion Clap it fired right up! I only let it run a few seconds because I didn't want to burn something up, so now I'm getting a new resistor.

THANKS everyone for all your help!!!


Edited by CrestonM - 25 Nov 2015 at 11:33am
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CTuckerNWIL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 11:07am
It sounds WAY simpler to me, if you have voltage at the resistor and NOT after the  resistor, just replace the resistor. 
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Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alberta Phil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 10:55am
It's been some years since I worked on those front mount Ford distributors, but if I recall correctly, those Ford coils work on about 3 or 4 volts. The resistor is there to drop the voltage from 6.  They burn out quickly from too much voltage. (Past experience talking here!)
I suspect your coil is fried.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 10:54am
I presume that it cranks but does not start, yes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 10:28am
Can be the resistor, the wire, or any connection between the coil and the ignition switch. There is no way from those two measurements to determine where the open is. You have to trace the wiring and test every accessible point, maybe even use a needle to pierce the wire insulation for intermediate location tests. Test crimp connections by pulling on the wire. Sometimes with a bad crimp the wire will pull out of the almost crimped connection.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 10:18am
Thanks for that explanation.
So should I do what Bob said, or will that burn the coil and points up? I'm starting to get confused. 
I'm still thinking to replace the resistor, as on one side there's 6V when the key is on, and on the other side there's 0.00 volts, also with the key on. And seeing as there's nothing else connected to that terminal with 0 volts but the coil wire, I'm thinking the resistor must be shot?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 6:20am
ALL points and coil based ignition systems will have 'ballast' resistors. Some are obvious ( external) mounted somewhere(D-14 is under the gas tank on a plate with a fuse !),8Ns on the rear of the left side of the dash. Now some coils have them built in but should be clearly marked as such. That type make the wiring just a bit easier though not original and the 'correct cops' will ding you points for using one.
The resistor is required to limit the current through the coil and points to about 4 amperes. Any more current and the points will 'burn up' or the coil will get really,really hot and die. It's a very good idea to measure the current draw as it's too easy to just 'swap coils ,they're all the same'....NO they aren't ! poof....
The resistor can come in several forms. The classic Ford one is on a bakelite insulation block, open coil, with a metal gaurd over it. Most 'replacement' units will be 1/2" by 3" blocks of ceramic with lugs for wiring and a band for mounting it to the tractor. The ones I love are made by Dale. Good for 50 watts,encased in an extruded gold anodized aluminum,sealed case and less than $10.

Jay

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Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 12:16am
So you don't think the resistor is the problem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chalmersbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 10:13pm
Fords are weird.
They use a resister on the 6 volt system ans some have 1 wire generators.
Take a 4' piece of wire and hols 1 end to the neg terminal on the battery (assuming it is positive ground) and the other end of the wire to the coil. The tractor should run. If it does then work back toward the ignition switch looking for a problem. the original wire runs through the same tube as the spark plug wires and could be shorted in the tube. Just run a new wire and tape it to the wire tube. 
And yes, the distributor can be removed a serviced without removing the radiator. It's tight but can be done as timing is not a problem the way it's set up.LOL Bob



Edited by Chalmersbob - 24 Nov 2015 at 10:15pm
4 B's, 1 C's,3 CA's, 2 G's WD, D14, D15, B-1, B10, B12, 712S,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 8:11pm
Ok, maybe not a ballast resistor, but it's a ceramic resistor like this

I'm not too "electrical smart", to say the least.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 7:22pm
If we're talking of a 6 volt system here it had better not have a ballast resistor installed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 6:29pm
turn key on and see if there's 3 -6 volts on the coil side of the 'ballast resistor'. You should get 6 if the points are open, 3 if closed.
if you get ZERO volts, ballast resistor is kaput ( open).

Tried that and got 0. Time to order a ballast resistor I guess!




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 5:51pm
been mulling htis over as I had an *n and 'magic smoke' left it one day.

since you have 6  volts after the key, the switch is good.
turn key on and see if there's 3 -6 volts on the coil side of the 'ballast resistor'. You should get 6 if the points are open, 3 if closed.
if you get ZERO volts, ballast resistor is kaput ( open).
with the key off ! and the VOM set to low OHMS, you should get about 1.5 ohms, if ZERO, it's kaput(open) and you need a new one

this is one of those things that take a lot longer to type out than to actually do if I was there...sorry.

Good news is it is rather simple 'debugging' of the electricla circuit which fortunately doesn't have any fancy computers !!
negative of battery->ignition switch->ballast resistor->-ve coil +ve->points-> ground

hope this helps

Jay

3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 3:46pm
If you have a wire with mostly broken strands the extra current could have overheated and melted the few remaining strands. Just one possibility.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 11:09am
I just don't understand how this all happened. I simply touched a wire to the field terminal and a ground to let the generator charge at max output. I've done this before with this 8N and with the B and never had anything go wrong. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 11:01am
Don't be surprised if the problem is where the wire crimps into the terminal. Those faults can be a bear to find.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stan IL&TN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 10:57am
Find the wire that has 6 volts on it at the ignition switch when turned on and trace it to the coil.  Suspect a broken wire between them.

Edited by Stan IL&TN - 24 Nov 2015 at 10:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrestonM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 10:52am
Thanks guys.
Here's what I just tried.
Hooked a voltmeter to the switch with it off. 0.00 volts. Turned key on and got 6.07 volts. Good. Hooked voltmeter to coil and the ground terminal on the generator. 0.00 volts. 
Now what?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve in NJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 6:43am
If it is equipped with an Ignition switch, I would start right there. You might find your problem quickly. Sounds like you fried the Ignition switch...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 12:33am
There are two possible connections for a generator field coil. One connects one end of the coil to the armature, then the regulator or light switch grounds the other end for maximum charging. The other connection grounds one end of the field coil and connects the other end with the regulator or light switch to the armature. In the second connection grounding the F terminal SHORTs the generator output and with the cutout engaged the battery. That will draw lots of current and fry any bad connections or fuses or small wires in the circuit.

To detect voltage in circuits one can use a voltmeter or a test lamp. Where there is a possibility of a poor connection, I prefer a 1 amp test lamp to a volt meter that might draw as little as 50 microamps, 20,000 times less current than the test lamp. I have to make my test lamp using a handy 6 or 12 volt lamp with a wires added. A 50 watt 12 volt lamp from the RV section at wallyworld is a handy test lamp for 12 volts too. For 6 volts you need a 6 volt lamp.

I also prefer a lamp in series with the circuit under test when looking for a short, because it indicates a short without burning out like a fuse and it limits the current to a short to keep wires from being overheated.

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