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BennyLumpkin 
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Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Centre Hall, PA
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 Topic: WC timing issues *UPDATED*
Posted: 02 Feb 2015 at 4:23pm |
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I'm typing this one last time...if it deletes itself again I give up...the early 34 WC I got last week is having some issues. The day I bought it we pull started it and it barely ran and showed no oil pressure. It has been rebuilt and I believe that issue is because it had the wrong style oil filter on it. Anyway it will rip your arm out of the socket if you crank start it and it will absolutely not start. We pull started it there. It's been converted to electric start so I put the 12v starter from my WC puller in it and it won't turn it. Just hums. Same if I put a 6v in it. That's using jumpers and not utilizing any of the rats nest of battery cables it has. It's always worked before. I get to looking and the firing order was wrong. I changed it and still nothing. I pulled the mag and set to TDC with the timi bfg mark at the bottom of the fkywheel. I went by the steps on "Tom's 44 WC timing page" as I have before. My slot in the governor drive is off from his. It's off from ones I've timed before. That leads me to believe it's the cam isn't timed right...I could be wrong...I'm not afraid to learn...pics to follow
Edited by BennyLumpkin - 06 Feb 2015 at 5:12pm
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254
1945 WF
1945 WC135755
1951 WD68085
1953 WD45-150217
1957 WD45D-230744D
B110
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BennyLumpkin
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Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Centre Hall, PA
Points: 2657
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Posted: 02 Feb 2015 at 4:24pm |
Timing mark at the bottom of the flywheel on tdv with both valves on #1 closed 
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254
1945 WF
1945 WC135755
1951 WD68085
1953 WD45-150217
1957 WD45D-230744D
B110
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BennyLumpkin
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Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Centre Hall, PA
Points: 2657
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Posted: 02 Feb 2015 at 4:26pm |
It's tough to see...the timing mark above. Here is the mag slot slot 
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254
1945 WF
1945 WC135755
1951 WD68085
1953 WD45-150217
1957 WD45D-230744D
B110
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BennyLumpkin
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Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Centre Hall, PA
Points: 2657
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Posted: 02 Feb 2015 at 4:31pm |
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Tried a few different things. It's not 180 out. I switched it once. All I'm getting is popping out the exhaust. When I swapped it, it just popped out the carb. It absolutely will not fire. I understand it being tight but it should run. Maybe I'm missing something?
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254
1945 WF
1945 WC135755
1951 WD68085
1953 WD45-150217
1957 WD45D-230744D
B110
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AaronSEIA
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Mt Pleasant, IA
Points: 2573
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Posted: 02 Feb 2015 at 4:37pm |
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The gov drives off the cam, so the cam could be right and the gov wrong. Haven't read the page you are referring to. Did you get #1 coming up on compression to TDC timing it? That is going to be hard to do as tight as she sounds. It'd be easier with all 4 plugs out. Put your thumb over the #1 hole and roll till you feel air pushing past your finger. You know that is the compression stroke. Might be a problem getting it timed if the slot in the mag drive is too far off. You can pull the drive and turn it a few teeth to get it closer without pulling the engine. My bigger concern would be how tight the engine is. Might even be able to pull the front cover off the gov and see the timing marks. If the gov is times right to the cam and you know the gov is off, then it's a good assumption the cam is off as well. Someone who knows valve trains better than me could tell you how to find TDC by looking at the valves. Might even be able to tell if the cam is off by looking at the valves moving.
AaronSEIA
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BennyLumpkin
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Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Centre Hall, PA
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Posted: 02 Feb 2015 at 4:47pm |
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I was definitely tdc. I pulled the valve cover to double check my valves were closed and I'm not sure what internals this dummy threw in this thing but the piston comes up far enough I can see it in the plug hole. I don't remember a stock 201 coming up that far.
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254
1945 WF
1945 WC135755
1951 WD68085
1953 WD45-150217
1957 WD45D-230744D
B110
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ac fleet
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Location: Arrowsmith, ILL
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Posted: 02 Feb 2015 at 6:19pm |
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I would take it apart and start over!---LOTTA work, but then you know everything is in the right place. if no oil pressure the pump may be broke.--make sure the rods face the right way, etc. you may have a good tractor, but have to check the inside and make sure all the parts really are in the right spot! thanks ac;fleet
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TomMN
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Location: Elbow Lake, MN
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Posted: 02 Feb 2015 at 7:29pm |
On a 34 there is a cover on the top of the bell housing to look at the timing marks. Number one ready to fire at running speed the fire mark should be straight up.  When they changed the housing to allow for an electric starter the fire mark is viewed from the bottom. But if the engine has been swapped with a newer one or a different flywheel then you may have to use the setscrew on the crankshaft pulley to find TDC. With the plugs out feel for air pushing out around a finger in the number one plug hole while slowly turning the hand crank. Once you feel the air coming out you can remove your finger and look at the setscrew on the pulley if it is heading toward pointing down slowly turn until it is pointing straight down, if it is headed toward the top then continue until it is straight up. This will be Top Dead Center on number one, which is beyond the fire mark by 30 degrees. At TDC the mag drive slot should be horizontal. Do this a few times and you can find just where the marks are whether on the top or bottom and how the mag should be mounted. If you mount the mag at TDC then have the rotor pointing between 1 and 2 because it should already have fired number 1.
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BennyLumpkin
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Location: Centre Hall, PA
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Posted: 02 Feb 2015 at 7:51pm |
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I'll look at it again. Like I said I can watch the piston when it reaches it's highest point through the spark plug hole. It ran once though not well because so many things weren't where they should be. It's frustrating. My hand start B I timed just like this and it took some minor tweaking and it was always an easy starter. It won't get the best of me.
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254
1945 WF
1945 WC135755
1951 WD68085
1953 WD45-150217
1957 WD45D-230744D
B110
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CTuckerNWIL
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Location: NW Illinois
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Posted: 03 Feb 2015 at 6:49am |
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If you are using a Mag, the first thing you HAVE to do is remove the governor-mag drive and reinstall it so the slot is horizontzl at TDC of #1 piston.
Without doing this, you will just be banging your head against the wall forever.
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BennyLumpkin
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Location: Centre Hall, PA
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Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 5:16pm |
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So I got time today to pull the mag drive off and get it set right. Still stiff to turn so dad pulled me with the Kubota and it fired right up. I had the valve cover off and things were doing what they were supposed to but the Guage showed no pressure and it wasn't getting much oil up high. It's rebuilt so I have a few ideas. First is the oil was probably 40 weight. I drained that and I picked up something thinner. It was unbelievably thick. Could the oil relief be put together wrong? Cam bearings done wrong? I know it has the right filter. It had the wrong style when I got it. I really believe it was so thick it couldn't pump but I've been wrong before.
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254
1945 WF
1945 WC135755
1951 WD68085
1953 WD45-150217
1957 WD45D-230744D
B110
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AaronSEIA
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Location: Mt Pleasant, IA
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Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 5:56pm |
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If the cam bearings are rolled, you will have zero oil to the crank. That'd show pretty quick. You can pull the pressure spring on the right side above the frame rail. Should be a plunger and big spring under the cap (1 1/8" if I remember right). Just out of curiosity what is the PSI range of the gauge? They only had around 10 lbs cold anyway when new.
AaronSEIA
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BennyLumpkin
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Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Centre Hall, PA
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Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 6:01pm |
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I forget but it's the same as my other WC and it works in it. ..0-30 I think
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254
1945 WF
1945 WC135755
1951 WD68085
1953 WD45-150217
1957 WD45D-230744D
B110
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rasman57
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Location: Illinois
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Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 6:55pm |
 CTuckerNWIL wrote:
If you are using a Mag, the first thing you HAVE to do is remove the governor-mag drive and reinstall it so the slot is horizontzl at TDC of #1 piston.
Without doing this, you will just be banging your head against the wall forever.
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Charlie, you got him past the hard part! Keep after that WC... you will beat it!
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Gary in Texas
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Posted: 07 Feb 2015 at 4:28am |
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Dumb question?
Did it have the stand pipe/tube in it for the oil filter?
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BennyLumpkin
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Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Centre Hall, PA
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Posted: 07 Feb 2015 at 6:20am |
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Yup it does. One of the first things I checked. I'm hoping to get time to put this thinner oil in it today. I've seen dumber things be the problem.
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254
1945 WF
1945 WC135755
1951 WD68085
1953 WD45-150217
1957 WD45D-230744D
B110
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Don(MO)
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Location: Bates City MO.
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Posted: 07 Feb 2015 at 10:09am |
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OK Ryan let's go back to the oil filter stand pipe, I have seen them pushed down to far and that will close the hole going to the gauge off. I'd pull all four plugs out and check the compression and at the same time turn the engine over with the hand crank just to if it's still hard to turn over, if it's still hard to move them you will be time and money ahead to open her up and look around inside before running it more.
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3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.
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BennyLumpkin
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Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Location: Centre Hall, PA
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Posted: 08 Feb 2015 at 12:01am |
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Got some time today. Put fresh 5-0 in it and wow does it turn over better. Took the plugs out like Don said and it spun easily. Not sure on the tube on the filter. ..looks ok. I did notice there appears to be no cork in ends of the rocker arm assembly. It almost started by hand...needs some adjusting and the starter turned it a bit on a week battery....slowly I think I'm winning...and now I drug home another 37 and most of a second one tonight.
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254
1945 WF
1945 WC135755
1951 WD68085
1953 WD45-150217
1957 WD45D-230744D
B110
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