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Tankless water heaters

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DougG View Drop Down
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Joined: 20 Sep 2009
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    Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 8:18am
Hey all , I have a 40 gallon water heater about to give up Im afraid its 12 years old, Ive cleaned it out replaced elements - needs gone - anyway any tankless hot water heaters users on here ? Hard to beleive they keep up on a shower but they do Im sure- how do they rate them ? Number of People in the house ? TIA  
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DMiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 8:24am
Don’t do it.

First burst of shower water is skin peeling hot, then slowly turns cooler then tries to keep up. All I have ever been around heating elements do not last any longer do not appreciably save electrical expenses, most are and continue to be maintenance headaches in lime scale water regions.
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jaybmiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 8:30am
The BIG issue for me is that if you have 'hard' water, you MUST clean them every year,which naturally nobody does. Heck, no one plumbs in the required shutoff valves to keep the 'cleaning chemicals' OUT of the rest of the plumbing...like drinking water taps....
There's a gas one next door...burns a LOT of gas when on,needs to be rated for whatever well pump can supply.

Have no idea what and electric tankless costs or the cost.
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Lars(wi) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lars(wi) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 8:34am
Never had one for the household. We do have a small one(110 volt) in the laundry room for the washer, installed by previous owner.
From I have heard/read over the years, the electric ones don’t keep up. The nat gas/lp versions will keep up if sized correctly for the household. Depending on the model, the gas versions may require repiping the gas feed, as the volume of fuel consumed while heating is considerably more than a tank heater. Some have complained the tankless(gas fired) are very loud while heating.
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Codger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 8:52am
Depends. I built mine and it works well, but it's modeled off of my Landa pressure washer and not to maximize profit for a manufacturer. Coiled copper tubing inside a stainless steel burner chamber fired by fuel oil when needed does a good job. Only electrics are a water flow switch and temperature limit. Both must be satisfied before the burner kicks on which is from an old oil furnace. You do waste about three gallons of water before/as it heats up, and I cut the burner off at a discharge temperature of 130 degrees which you modulate for comfort at the point of use, (shower). The three gallons of waste water is stored in the accumulator tank and is not kept heated. The cold water is purged with hot incoming water. This accumulator prevents hot and cold surges of the burner modulating to maintain water temperature in the burner chamber. 

Never have any problems with the well water at the shop but I do run caustic soda through the system about every five years to rid any sediment or liming of the tubing, or faucet(s). 
That's All Folks!
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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 9:40am
I installed a Bosch at our previous house 20 years ago, as we were in need of a new one.  Our old one was a 40gal tank, and half full of lime.

The Bosch was mechanically throttled, meaning, it's fuel burn was controlled by waterflow rate and incoming temperature, and it worked like magic.  Turn hot water on at any tap, and it'd fire up, water came out hot, and would run all day, all night, at that same temperature, regardless of how many showers, how many loads of laundry, or how much spaghetti you were cooking.

Most of the problems people have with them, are a result of improper installation.  They require a larger gas line, and pressure MUST be constant.  If the outlet temperature is unstable, it's the result of excessive restriction in the gas line.

The efficiency part, is a result of the unit burning NO fuel when there's no hot water demand... and most people who replace their tank-type with a tankless on-demand, wind up using more water, thus they don't 'think' they've gained efficiency.

Tank types are much more susceptible to lime deposition because water sitting IN the tank gets very hot directly around the heating element, or at the heated burner surface.  While the water in the middle of the tank might be 110, the element or crown plate may be well over 160f.  Lime binds at room temperature, albeit extremely slowly... but around 140F, it starts binding a whole lot faster, so where those hot spots are, it binds and precipitates the lime very fast, which winds up at the bottom of the tank, creating a nice insulating layer.  A tankless doesn't tend to fill up as fast, because the water is moving fast, so it's in and out before it can accumulate.  That doesn't mean it cannot bind and precipitate, it just means it tends not to fill up it's tubes like it'll fill the bottom of a tank-type heater.

The biggest mistake people make in OPERATING a water heater (tankless or tank) is just running the temperature too high, and not cleaning out the lime.

The best solution for lime, is having a good water softener to help drag most of it out before it gets to a water heater in the first place... and turn the temperature down.  Increase the heated volume used, reduce the temperature.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Pat the Plumber CIL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pat the Plumber CIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 9:54am
If you are going to install a tankless water heater you need to install a large good quality unit . Bigger the better. Don't want to install and find out it won't keep up .200,000 btu or Bigger. Navien is the brand I have had the best experiences with. They have a 1 gallon bottle inside that stays hot .Don't have to wait as long for hot water to be created. Also has a built-in recirculating pump that can be connected to a return line. Also has AI where it learns your patterns and only recirculates when needed. Most units have a delay before it makes hot water and sends it on it's way. Also cheap units won't kick on until a certain flow is established. I have a customer who bought one online. When she showers in summer the flow is to slow to turn on .She has to have sink faucet hot water running in order to keep water flow up to where it works.
The only redeeming quality to most of these units it endless hot water. Do you really need endless hot water? If there was a young couple building a house and planning on having a bunch of children, this about the only scenario where I would suggest installing. As Jay stated mineral build-up needs dealt with yearly. Vinegar or citric acid needs pumped through to remove mineral build-up from all the sensors, switches , pumps and heat exchanger. Any savings from not keeping a tank heated is wasted. Also upfront costs are 2 to 3 times a conventional tank install. Modern tanks are insulated much better and after heating unit up you are basically only paying for what you use.
You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails

1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF.
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Pat the Plumber CIL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pat the Plumber CIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 10:03am
Also if installing one be aware of the venting materials. Cheaper unit use stainless steel flue piping. Price some stainless steel flue pipe. More expensive units use a power vent and schedule 40 pvc piping and elbows can be used . More expensive unit is less expensive to install.
Bet a softner and a standard tank unit would be cheaper in the long run.
You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails

1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omahagreg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 12:03pm
I don’t and won’t have one! In Omaha the one carpentry client I had that had the tankless water heater had trouble finding a plumber that would do the yearly maintenance. Once he found one it was very costly!
Greg Kroeker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonBC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 5:13pm
From my experience as a mechanical engineer I say OK to propane and NG but no to an electrical instantaneous water heater. I have designed a couple of installations with electric instantaneous heaters in a couple of supermarkets where running gas to the location was a problem and coupled the electric heater with a small storage tank and circ pump. 
Jack of all trades, master of none
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200Tom1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 200Tom1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 11:38pm
Doug, in 2009 we built a new shed for our honey business. I went to Menard's and bought a small one, but not the smallest one they had. It was electric. It worked till last fall. I had a professional electrician wire it. He told me a lot of these don't work right because they are wired wrong or wired too light. When that one quit, I bought one three times the size of the old one. It puts out enough hot water I can run a power washer full blast and never run out of hot water. When mine goes bad here in the house, I will replace it with the largest electric one I can get my hands on.

Edited by 200Tom1 - 18 Dec 2022 at 11:39pm
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WF owner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 6:26am
We had a Monitor (kerosene) on demand water heater for 25+ years. Monitor is now out of business. I believe this Toyotomi is very similar. OM-122DW Toyotomi Semi-on-Demand Water Heater (toyotomiusa.com) .

In 2017, when I was going through cancer treatment, we had a pipe break, flooding the cellar. The water heater was damaged and, being 25 years old, it wasn't worth fixing. One of my son-in-laws (the contractor) picked up a 30 gallon electric water heater and installed it for us. We are still using the electric heater.

I'm a firm believer that, if you have hard water, a water softener is a very good investment, especially for less water heater problems.

The advantage of this type of water heater are that there is an infinite supply of hot water, which was very valuable when we had three teenage daughters at home. Water temperature was consistent from the time you started getting hot water until you shut it off. Also, our electricity bill dropped more than $30 per month.

The disadvantages are that there is a bit of wait time before you start getting hot water and it makes a fair amount of noise when it is working (which would be less problematic now that we are retired, than it was when I was starting work at 4 AM. As Pat said above, they also have to be vented, which can be a problem.

We have just installed several mini-splits (heat pump) heat / air conditioners, which I am very impressed with. When our electric water heater dies, I will be looking at a heat pump water heater or a Toyotomi on demand fuel water heater.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2022 at 11:52am
On softened water, just remember to remove the Cathode in the new heater otherwise will stink.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dee_veloper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2022 at 12:39pm
" how do they rate them ?"

Rating is based on two factors:  geographical location and required flow rate.  Charts are available from manufacturer for their specific unit capabilities.


Don't confuse my personality with my attitude.
My personality is who I am. My attitude depends on who you are.
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