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Shop Talk

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Sugarmaker View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2020 at 8:59pm
Allisbred,
 Great pictures of your buildings. The big barn looks very nice! 
I moved one step forward and two steps back today. About normal on any of my projects.
I wanted to try to utilized the large area in the trusses for some storage. I know its debatable and everyone has there own opinions. Yes we should get rid of stuff not have room for more. The truss I looked at would provide 960 square feet of additional floor space designed for 10 lbs per sg foot load. 
 So I had my potential contractor get the design and pricing. Its double the cost of a std truss. :(
I guess I will ask the question. Is it worth it? The additional cost for the taller open trusses is about the cost of a 10 x 12 shed. The actual storage area would be about 8 times more than a storage shed.
 Was thinking I could squirrel away all kinds of Allis parts up there too!:) I could have one end and the wife could have the other. 
Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 31 Dec 2020 at 8:47pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisbred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2020 at 7:14am
Well, I know these are all hard decisions, have to way out the facts. Storage up stairs is nice and very expensive, you can go to a medium duty truss for light storage, just for lighter items and help keep cost down. As you get older, overhead storage gets hard to to use. If the building is tall enough, you can put in something at a later date. Will still be very expensive. I would advise talking to Shirks, they built my shop cheaper than I could purchase the materials alone by ~1000$ . That could give you some buy power for upgrades. I also recommend having the building above the highest grade to keep any water issues away. Will be much cheaper to fill than to come back adding drain tile. Best of luck!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2020 at 7:33am
just 10#/sqft ???  so YOU can't stand up there ???

something sounds weird....

One BIG problem is getting stuff up and down... for some 'reason' old knees don't work good, shoulders ache and well... it's a PITA going up and down 23 time only to find the item NEXT to the phone you used 2 hrs ago....

I've got 'stuff' squirreld away in the garage 'attic' I haven't seen nor used in 25 years..yeah one day I might go through it... Worse is the shop, where the 'contractor' has tons ( really) of stuff on a 'floor' hanging from the 12' centered trusses( ones still broke).....

If you build a mezzanine, cost in a dumb waiter..... THAT will pay for itself PDQ
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2020 at 11:46am
Guys both good points!
 I googled Shirk they are 5 hours from me. 
I hear you that you put stuff somewhere and it only comes out after you die!:) Maybe not funny but true.
 I have thought about the dumb waiter concept too. 
The cost of the approx 960 square feet of storage, (16 x 60)  is about the same as buying a 150 sq foot storage shed. So yes there is some cost, but may still be good value?
Yes this is for a truss that is somewhere between a std truss and a room truss.
I appreciate being able to bounce ideas off you guys that may have much more experience. I know that one building does not fit all. 
I was considering reducing the ceiling height back down to 10 feet. This woulkd lowere the base building costs and offset most of the storage truss cost.
Yes the 10# per foot doesnt sound right. May have to look at that more? I may not have been looking at the specs correctly?
Off to cut wood for making syrup. A couple hours of that should take my mind off this building.
Regards,
 Chris  
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2020 at 9:42pm
10 # per foot is a light duty storage area, but that is probably the correct number. It does NOT mean you cant stand up there... If a given area is 10 ft  x 10 ft, that is 100 square feet.. at 10# PER FOOT that area will hold 1000 POUNDS....  Yea, you cant put 200# guys standing sholder to sholder, but you could put a 200# guy in an area 4 ft x 5 ft....

Most floors in a house are designed for #40 PER SQ FT.... Roof are normally 20 - 40 depending on if your in the SOUTH, or expect to have 10 ft snow drifts on top.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2020 at 8:20am
Folks,
Yes I believe the 40 lbs exterior roof load is a number I recall.
I am seriously considering dropping the ceiling height back to 9'6. and then go with 8 foot door height. My very original thought was 10 foot eave. then I went to 12 foot eave with 10 foot doors, Now thinking of going back to 10 foot ceiling to lower the cost a little.
At this time the only tall thing that might have to go in a 10 foot door is the little camper we own which doesnt really have to go in the garage. I dont expect to buy some big tall tractor. The wife says no more tractors!:) 
Yea I can't make up my mind! Pretty typical!:) Some days I want all the goodies, then I get jerked back to reality, that it all has costs! 
Still in the planning stages, with a budget!:)
Thanks for checking in on me. 
I do appreciate the positive feed back!
 Regards,
 Chris

D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisbred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2020 at 9:23am
I went with a 10’ ceiling in the shop w/ 9’ door height. You can get a low clearance door I believe up to 9.5’ has more panels and sharper radius at the corners. That may help you some. I was back and forth on 12’ as well and dropped back to 10’ on my shop for heat reasons and it would look big. It works well unless I need to work on the combine, picker or truck loaded. Most cases, I have somewhere else to do that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dakota Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2020 at 11:43am
I went with 12 ft cieling and 10 ft high door. Wish I would have got 11' door. My camper dosent fit by 4". So when I need to work on it I take it to work. I put up a 30x36 shop in 2017 wish it was bigger but it wound up twice the cost of what my wife agreed on. I wanted to put in floor heat but my costs were over budget already. I had not planed on keeping it heated all the time so I have a hanging box propane heater. It's been real nice. My attic space has R40 insulation in it so it stays warm and cool in the summer. Wish I would have put it up 20 years ago. I have a 30x 50 barn with 15 x50' gravel floor lean to on the north side for storage. Half the barn I insulated so I had a place to work but did as little in there as posiable the loft support posts get in the way any time your trying to work on something. The loft is big open and totally useless. It's to much work to use overhead storage. When ever something goes up it never sees the light of day again. So stuff piles up waiting till it goes up for storage. Eventually I throw it out.at least the end loft door is convenient for tossing stuff every couple years I backed the dump truck under and tossed out the stuff that never should have gone up into storage in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2020 at 1:49pm
Allisbred, and Dave, Folks,
Thanks you for these comments! 
I may look at the 9 foot doors with more panels and sharper turn.
Also I had a come to Jesus meeting with the little woman that pays the bills. She said she would not use the loft area for her stuff. It took me a little while to get around that concept. And then it hit me I will build this for just me!:) After talking to several friends today, I will now consider a plan to look at options with no loft storage. It just took a giant load off my shoulders!:)
Some of the results of that decision:
no stairs to climb, several folks reminded me that I am not getting any younger!
no loft flooring costs
no extra truss costs for the loft design.
no extra costs to insulate the door into the loft.
no windows in the ends of the loft area.

To allow for some storage it would be in the form of wall racks.

Also may look at half of the building with conventional truss systems, and the other half to have scissors type with 3/12 pitch underside pitch. This would allow potential head room for a 12 foot car lift system someday?? Not sure what the cost of the scissors truss will be?

Regards,
 Chris

D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2020 at 8:13am
Folks,
 Not really shop related but I got a call that my logs had been sawn and I dropped everything and went to get the lumber. Now maybe some of this Ash will be used in the new building too? Don't have any plans but there are some nice boards in there. The sawyer was even drooling over them!:)

218 board feet came to $40 for the saw work, (Amish run band saw mill) I thought that was fair price.



Cut the stickers and Cheryl helped unload it.

I include this here because the tree had to come down for the new building to get started.
No we have not broken ground yet, just way too wet here. Maybe within the next two weeks we can get the pad in place??
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2020 at 8:41am
Good looking lumber. We do not get many Ash trees as harvestable here anymore as the Ash Borer gets to them too fast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 12:39pm
Folks,
 Did a poll of the two big grandsons and they vote in favor of 12 foot ceiling and 10 foot high overhaead doors. They are in their 20's and have lifted trucks on the brain I think!:)
Just need to make up my old mind. I know that 20 years ago when I built my sugar house the ceiling in the evaporator room was set at 10 feet. I thought that was way to high. Now I barely have room to get my maple equipment under the 10 feet ceiling. 
Hope things are good out there in Orange Land! We have a little drier weather today. May try to mow the rest of the yard.
Thanks for checking in on me. 
Regards,
 Chris


D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by allisbred allisbred wrote:

I went with a 10’ ceiling in the shop w/ 9’ door height. You can get a low clearance door I believe up to 9.5’ has more panels and sharper radius at the corners. That may help you some. I was back and forth on 12’ as well and dropped back to 10’ on my shop for heat reasons and it would look big. It works well unless I need to work on the combine, picker or truck loaded. Most cases, I have somewhere else to do that.

Yes I did find out you can get the low clearance door 9 foot in a 10 ft room. The door is more expensive than a residential 8 footer. That being the case I am leaning a little towards the 10 foot door and 12 foot ceiling. At least this hour today! I had kind of budgeted for 12 foot ceiling and 10 foot doors already. Not sure I will ever heat the whole place during the winter. But sure would be nice if it could be a little more comfortable.
 My sugarhouse is cold, un-insulated, and it is not fun to try to work in there when its in the teens!
Thanks!
 Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisbred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 12:58pm
This is a picture of a 9 x 16’ door with 10’ ceiling height. 12’ will be nice if you want a lift, that is very tall though for a small shop. I have 12’4” for the barn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 1:01pm
My own is 12'4" to include the Footer walls(stick built not pole barn)where I wish had raised that to 16' interior and 14' door, on the vehicle side where a 8' tall door on the tools side and a over floor to a 6+' second ceiling storage room would have been extremely useful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisbred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 1:20pm
Chris, I went back and looked at your shop size. 40 x 60 x 12 should be real nice. I was thinking you were going smaller in sq ft.

Edited by allisbred - 04 May 2020 at 1:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by allisbred allisbred wrote:

This is a picture of a 9 x 16’ door with 10’ ceiling height. 12’ will be nice if you want a lift, that is very tall though for a small shop. I have 12’4” for the barn.

That helps get the look with the Allis setting there. I know I have only a inch or two clearance with the Allis tractors under a 7 foot door. So that just has to have taller doors in the new shop for sure. !2 feet seems over kill today! Have to polish the crystal ball and look into the future. 

Hey that's a nice looking Allis.
Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 07 May 2020 at 7:56am
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisbred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2020 at 2:51pm
The 200 on 38” rubber will not fit with the full length stack (I believe is 4’?) everything 185 and under without a cab goes easily. I do think I’d go for the 12’ for a building your size though. Thanks for the comment on my old 45! Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2020 at 8:08am
Goal is to live long enough to pay for this project and to see Cooper pull some of these old orange tractors! He has claimed the WZ as his!:)
The WZ at the north west corner of the proposed building, truck is setting in front of one of the west facing garage doors:



Cooper loves tractors:

Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 07 May 2020 at 8:09am
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2020 at 9:51pm
Folks,
 I have a giant hole in my yard today! I need to begin to finalize some design things. Gravel for the compacted building base is coming tomorrow. 





Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IBWD MIke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 8:55am
Cool.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 9:21pm
Folks, 
How come this all scares the heck out of me? To much stress at my age!
On a good note I did get my wood cut for making syrup next year. Perfect!
The dirt pushers will be filling in the hole tomorrow. Using bank gravel and packing it. Hoping for no rain tonight and into tomorrow til they get this pad in place.
More dirty pictures coming!
I have to sleep on it. One thing at a time. Maybe when I see the pad the rest of the building details will start to gel?

Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 21 May 2020 at 9:24pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shameless dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 12:26am
when i bought my ASTRO building years ago, it was going to be 40x60x14. when they came to put it up, they asked if it was alright if the sidewalls could be 14 & 1/2 tall...something about the manufac. process, said it wouldn't cost extra and they could do the 14 ft if i wanted. i went ahead and let them do the extra 1/2 foot. it worked out o-k. i also have an upstairs in it. i'm 6 ft and have to duck about 2 inches under the rafters when i'm up there, after you bump into them a couple times, you learn and it really don't bother me at all. i have parts shelving up there and know what is there and what's not. used to have my oil storage up there, was a gravity system and worked well, kept it from taking up space down below. i was always gonna put an old forklift mast in there for an elevator to lift things up there but never got around to it. i did put a rope with a meat hook on the end to lift a few items up there which worked good. i do have staircase going up there mounted along the back wall. i have 20 ft door openings on 2 sides, that allowed me to squeeze my combines in with the headers on them. the extra 1/2 foot height was good as it allowed me to fit the combines in with their grain bin extensions left on. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 6:47am
Shameless dude,
 Thanks for the information on height and storage. I need to separate my want to haves from my need to haves. 
I am not planning on going into farming but also dont want to bump stuff on the door headers.
Moving dirt today.
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dusty MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 10:18am
I have a used forced air furnace that would make a good shop heater. It's set up for LP and could be changed to Nat. Also could be changed to burn fuel oil, but that would take a little more changing.

Dusty
917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Creek Jenkins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 12:57pm
I built a shop in 2008, 30x56 pole building. I had a couple friends with 12' wall buildings who later bought campers that wouldn't fit, so I went 13' walls. Came in handy when we had a fifth wheel for a few years that was 12'4".
I don't like cracked cement, and since we are in a clay / rocky area, I dug out the top of a little rise in a pasture and filled it with 12" of class 5, topped by 6" of sand. Poured 5" slab on top, with 12" thick around the perimeter 16" in. Also went 12"+thick and in 24" at all 3 big doors as I knew I would be driving tractors and heavy stuff in and out. Lots and lots of 5/8" rerod. No cracks at all so far. Set the building on top of the slab after 60 days of curing. I needed more room for storage, so put up a 12'x24' mezzanine in one corner, supported by the two walls and hung from the top of the trusses - no weight on the horizontal stringer. 2x4 floor joists, 1/2" plywood floor. I put brackets on the bottom so I can slip posts into place to support it if we have a heavy snow load. Haven't had to yet. Only lighter stuff stored upstairs, mostly near the walls. I put a staircase on a hinge so I can lower it when I need to access.
Wish I would have bit the bullet and put in a ceiling from the start, would have been nice to heat it eventually.
cheers,
Creek
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 7:53pm
Folks,
Good news / not so good news!
I live on a hill! 
The not so good news, at least it feels that way.
I now have a big hole that has lots of bank gravel filled back into it. I dont feel well tonight. The side where I plan to enter  from the west has a much steeper slope (driveway) than I had imagined. My fault for not doing some more upfront work with a lazer level, and maybe some simple string lines.
At this moment I am going to sleep on it. It is just very different and i am not very happy with myself. Ever have it when a plan doesnt come together! 
Now the north side looks much better and the slope (drive) into the building is going to be much less severe. 
Even the wife is not too happy! That is not a good thing.

The good news I think: well the current grade of the potential building will be higher than surrounding driveway on the east side. (upside of our gently sloping property.

Looking from the wood shed in my sugarhouse. Looking west.

My truck near where one of the two 12 foot wide doors was/ is planned facing west:

North end of the proposed building: I think this end looks pretty good for a much more gradual slope into the shop area of the proposed building.

My truck and the new slope into the proposed building. Nose of truck would be about 6 feet from the building and still need 4 inches of cement in height too.
Might be good for oil changes!:)

Now there will be a little more fill put in under the truck and out into the existing drive: It started raining and the material was just to wet to work any more.

So I guess I just needed to vent maybe I will feel better? Thanks for checking on me!
Truck moved north 16 feet, to about where the second west facing overhead door is proposed: Looking towards the south. By the way the electric pole is going to be gone, at some later date.

Maybe I am making too much of this? Not going to be a easy fix, that I can think of, other than making the building narrower by 8 feet. Therefor lessening the ramp height about 10 inches?
Slope at that point is about 36 rise inches in 30 feet ish of run.

Regards,
 Chris











Edited by Sugarmaker - 22 May 2020 at 8:01pm
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Points: 1011
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisbred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2020 at 8:19pm
Chris, I raised both buildings above grade and put a ramp going up. Shop I went 8” at the high end and 3’ at the low end. Barn I went 18” high at high end and 3’ or more on the low. I found concrete dirt for free plus hauling. I think it was 40 triaxial loads total with the driveway and buildings. It was all very low and took water. It was one of the better decisions I made.
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DMiller View Drop Down
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 21002
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2020 at 6:55am
My barn has a High side similar, I ended up mounding the ramp(NOT Flat) so actually cross a hump to enter, looked weird but works better.
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plummerscarin View Drop Down
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Joined: 22 Jun 2015
Location: ia
Points: 1851
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2020 at 8:19am
From the photos the pitch looks similar to mine. Have not had much trouble with it unless we get a real bad ice storm. Worst case a little extra gravel on the driveway to lessen the transition may help
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