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Right to Repair |
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Ted J ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Jul 2010 Location: La Crosse, WI Points: 18923 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 27 Feb 2025 at 1:38am |
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Ever heard of this before? I've been a member (getting emails) for over a year now and sending messages to our elected idiots about once a week. It WORKS! They have made some changes that benefit us. Give it a shot..... They are are really poking the bear (JD) right now. Let me know what you think of this article.
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"Allis-Express"
19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17 |
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Gary Burnett ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Virginia Points: 3010 |
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What farmer could actually afford the necessary equipment to do on farm repairs? Even factory trained repair techs have problems with repairs these days.I see this as only helping the giant mega farmers with deep pockets.At any rate doesn't affect me since I'm running 20th Century tractors.
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21385 |
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The issue isn't just tractors. It is combines, self-propelled sprayers and forage choppers and windrowers and skid loaders and excavators and on and on. Anything with a COMPUTER onboard. Deere Tech's must use THEIR laptop and computer program to make the repairs complete.
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 85618 |
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In the AUTOMOTIVE industry, you can buy a $50. SCANNER that can give CODES and narrow down many of the problems for Home Repairs.. I have used one of them for 20 years... No reason that tractors should be any different..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DMiller ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 33143 |
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All the diesel engine manufacturers hold their data lines as Corporate Secrets, "Proprietary", requires license to utilize or to gain update maps, that becomes exceedingly expensive where courts are not backing them on this. RTR is coming and the manufacturers are figuring that will cut into bottom lines.
Edited by DMiller - 27 Feb 2025 at 8:18am |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21385 |
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That's not the whole problem. The John Deere laptop/program calibrates transmissions, hydraulic pumps and valves, etc,etc. It is more than just a diagnosis of a problem. It is the actual complete repair of the electronic controller. Caterpillar is really no different.
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HudCo ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Location: Plymouth Utah Points: 3772 |
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if all i need is a fifty dollar scanner then why do i have to have a five thousand dollar scanner to do my job in the shop ? but this right to repair bill i think is a big deal , ihave to have a way to stay up to date with with the john deere equipment and the cnh 1086 internationals and 4020 john deeres are all most extinct on farms now. i have been looking in to spending the 7000 $ for the texa software for deere and cnh for our shop latop . i still have to make a living for a lot more years
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Mikez ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Jan 2013 Location: Usa Points: 8605 |
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I see both sides of the argument.
I’m thinking the argument against you being able to fix your own is simply liability.
Just picture Joe Shmoe in the computer fng up settings then the tractor runs over little Suesy from next door. Awhile ago someone sent me a video on right to farm law. And it was kinda scary. It was saying if you dig deep enough into ownership of software that you technically down own any of it. Automotive, iPhone,iPad, earbuds. Can’t remember the other lingo. Wish I could find it again. |
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Les Kerf ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 1056 |
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This is correct. My last job before retiring was in the engineering department at Encoder Products Co. One of my duties was installing software/operating systems, etc. You must click on the "Accept Terms of Agreement" which is supposed to mean you have read and agree to the EULA (End Users License Agreement) in order to continue. No one actually reads this every time (I did once, it makes you go cross-eyed). This is partly why I use Puppy Linux for my personal computer needs. Sorry this doesn't help the modern farmers ![]() |
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 85618 |
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The $50. auto scanners are just that.. a SCANNER.. Will tell you if you have a miss fire, what cylinder, vacuum leak, temp probe problem, coil or injectors no working, O2 out of range, etc... You can NOT change the shift points, rpm set, fuel injection, etc.. This is a BASIC SMALL PROBLEM analysis ..... No reason the Tractor guys could not do the same thing.... If you have a bigger problem then YOU can decide to go to the shop... Last time i was at a Car Dealer for repair was under warrenty in 1989..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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tbran ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Paris Tn Points: 3481 |
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The other side of this is Deere's ability to retain techs. Large farmers look at their bill from the local johnny Pop dealer and thinks "I have him out here 6 hours a week at $200/hour - why don't I just HIRE the tech - he can work on my new Deere stuff and the other time he can help me farm - change oil - fix other stuff. That cuts out the dealer. I went to a service school last year and that was the hot topic - tech retention of Deere. They are losing them in droves. Not so much so CIH and Agco.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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Mikez ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Jan 2013 Location: Usa Points: 8605 |
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Good point tbran. I see that with cat and Cummins. My neighbor has trucking company. And that’s happened a lot over the years. Guys get trained by cat, Cummins then moonlight at the smaller trucking companies.
Edited by Mikez - 27 Feb 2025 at 11:02am |
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HudCo ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Location: Plymouth Utah Points: 3772 |
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then why dont we just get rid of the obd2 system for the automotive industry and leave it all up to the dealers ?
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jaybmiller ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 24350 |
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OBD-II was supposed to make it easy for EVERYONE to get vehicles repaired, by having a common connector and error messages but like everything else it got 'complicated'. There's 3-4 or more OBD-II 'hardware' systems and of course 'extended' diagnostic messages as more 'computer stuff has been added over the decades.... My 'problem' is that owners of the vehicles SHOULD be able to either use a scanner or the 'intellidisplay' computer to SEE which 'sensor' has crapped out ! A generic 'fault' does no body any good yet it is dead SIMPLE to have the screen say 'injector #4 defective', or O2 sensor #2 bad'.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 85618 |
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ODB does not say " #2 injector is bad and needs to be changed out".... but it DOES SAY " missfire on #2 cylinder" ...... that leads you in the right directions ... could it be the injector? yes... could it be a bad COIL ? .... yes... not EXACT , but it does lead you in the right direction for repairs..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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BigGuy1000 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 2013 Location: NWIL Points: 126 |
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I would estimate that in all of Illinois, less than 100 farmers would benefit by this access to repair data, because:
1. Even with access to repair data and parts, I see that the farmer at the farm still must have the training and access to the company network to properly diagnose and fix a problem. Sooo, how would the average farmer be able to get the needed training and company network access??? 2. In all of Illinois, I would guess that, judging by the very few farmers at that level of income, very few (less than 100?)would have the need for this kind of repair help! PS. Certainly not me!! Dairy, <100K income!! |
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 85618 |
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Harvey... what is needed is a very BASIC system for the Home Use... You would not have access to the engine governor speed, fuel injection point , trans shift points, etc..
What it would do for you is the engine is running cold and burning excess fuel and you dont know why... the temp gauge on the dash reads 180 degrees ???? So you plug in the $50. scanner and it says the "TEMP PROBE" sending the signal to the computer is BAD and reading 35 degrees when the engine is warm... So you go to the dealer or ON LINE and order the $30. TEMP SENSOR and install yourself.... Very bASIC maintenance, not needing a dealer mechanic.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Sherman Farms ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Location: Centerburg, OH Points: 1659 |
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I can call my dealer with the error code and they will tell me what's wrong and if I can fix it myself.
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B, C, RC, 3 wc,2 wd,3 wd45, d15, d17, d19, d21, 190, 440, 7040, 918 backhoe, 12 roto balers, 7 60 combines, 40, 66,2 72,90 super, sp100, Gleaner E, F3, 3 L2, R62, and much more
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Acguywill ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 15 Jan 2024 Location: Vauxhall ab Can Points: 132 |
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Or simpler yet why can't the diagnostic system tell us that without having to hook up a scanner? It would save everyone time and money and frustration. Yes I understand that most new stuff can be monitored remotely by A, B, OR C, but it is still not good enough for the operator to understand. A code shows up with a brief description that I have no idea what it means so I still have to hassle the dealer because I can't comprehend a 5 word phrase used to describe a 2 page issue.
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Sids ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 16 Feb 2025 Location: belleville, ks Points: 5 |
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So here is an example I do not understand. Let's just say you are going along with your tractor, truck or car.
So all at once a warning comes on and the engine goes into limp mode. So you get it to repair shop or dealer,they hook up scanner and bingo here is your problem it is this whatever. My comment is they should make the computer in the vehicle display the whatever on the display so you can fix it. Don't hook it to a scanner, the vehicle system already knows what is wrong. We had a truck in the shop we worked on, was in limp mode, problem was Def pump. Repaired Def system, still in limp mode ??? Finally called dealer for help. Had to have truck towed 80 miles so they could clear code which we could have done but they would not give us info to do so. What a waste of. Time and money. |
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tbran ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Paris Tn Points: 3481 |
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As a dealer, I agree - customers BOUGHT the tractor - they should be able to do with it as they see - If they want to buy a service manual they can - should be able to buy the electronic portion as well . IF they screw it up - it is their fault - if they fix it - it is their gain. Deere argues they have 'proprietary' (secret) info they do not want accessed - BS. It is the money.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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Acguywill ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 15 Jan 2024 Location: Vauxhall ab Can Points: 132 |
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Not sure any amount of money will fix the lack of techs. The simplest and quickest and cheapest solution would be to automate diagnostic services. If jd is worried about loosing money on the deal make it subscription based. I would gladly spend a couple hundred bucks a year if it saved a day or two of waiting for a tech to come out because he is busy with someone else's problems. It seems like a win win.
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jaybmiller ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 24350 |
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using Steve's example, it is EASY for the 'computer' to KNOW whether the injector or the coil is bad, it should also display the injector serial number, as some ( Kubota) ECU's require this to properly 'recalibrate'. Having to go to dealer to have their tech use his computer to reset the ECU is just a HUGE money grab.... Another pet peeve of mine is the dealer will replace several items AND charge you for all, even though the LAST one WAS the defective part. There's no reason that every sensor doesn't have a unique ID . I've got 128 temperature sensors on ONE wire and can easily find out which one is defective or where the wire is open or shorted. It's not 'rocket science' just good old programming.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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HudCo ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Location: Plymouth Utah Points: 3772 |
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their are lot off independant shops that are willing to provide top notch service and have had decades long customers, and they dont want to loose them because they can not provide the service required now a days these guys dont purchase thousands of dollars worth of tools equipment and pay overhead every year for their health
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WF owner ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 May 2013 Location: Bombay NY Points: 4889 |
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If "right to repair" does happen, it won't affect anyone but big shops. Big shops will be the only ones that will be able to afford the computer files.
I had a guy that used to work on my vehicles after their warranties expired. Every year he had to buy updated computer files for the latest vehicles at a cost of several thousands of dollars. As he got older, he wanted to cut back to less time, but he couldn't do repairs without the new files (some were updates on older vehicles). He ended up closing completely because the updates were so expensive. I expect it will be the same with the software for the farm equipment or commercial trucks.
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jvin248 ![]() Silver Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Jan 2022 Location: Detroit Points: 422 |
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. Right to repair is a huge deal. Don't buy equipment from manufacturers who don't subscribe to it. Deere and Apple are the two biggest offenders out there. Can you afford disposable equipment? That's what they want. Many farmers have broken down combining and can't get a service tech out because all the other farmers in the area are down too. You gotta get the corn in. Or you have hay cut and rain is approaching. Bad deal for the farmer, they don't think about that corn or hay pays the monthly loan or buys the next machine. They got you stuck and you'll pay big money for a repair, when they get to you. Pretty darn abusive. One car company includes QR barcodes on parts you can take a picture and it opens up a YouTube video to diagnose and remove that part, options to order replacement parts. Parts are low cost, not marked up/doubled six times as "a profit center". The faster and cheaper you are back on the road the more of a lifetime fan you will be. The Dealers are Deere's customers, not you. Your money should go to brands that support you keeping your costs low so you can buy more products. They chop you up for a short game, not the long game partnership. Choose wisely. .
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 85618 |
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If "right to repair" does happen, it won't affect anyone but big shops. Big shops will be the only ones that will be able to afford the computer files.
That is not how it works.. We are talking about BASIC MAINTENANCE... You can get a $50. scanner that is capable of reading 1000 DIFFERENT CODES from your car / truck and give you a BASIC idea of what is wrong... If its a vacuum leak, fuel injector, sensor problem, that is BASIC and you can do that yourself with the $50. scanner... If your transmission will not shift or engine has a BIG PROBLEM, then you might need the DEALER SOFTWARE to get DETAILED problem solving.. again, i have had several trucks and cars and used these readers hundreds of times.. I have not been to a DEALER to use their "SOFTWARE" in over 30 years. ![]() Edited by steve(ill) - 27 Feb 2025 at 8:00pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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WF owner ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 12 May 2013 Location: Bombay NY Points: 4889 |
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I am well acquainted with how an OBD scanner works on a car or truck. I am also aware that when I take my truck back for warranty work, the laptop they use to diagnose problems works. They can "update" (reflash) the computer to change settings that the manufacturer has made per their TSB updates. DrAllis was talking about a program that would allow you to set all different kind of parameters on hydraulics, etc. You will never be able to do that with a $50 scanner.
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 85618 |
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RIGHT... that is EXACTLY what i said... This is for BASIC SMALL MECHANICAL problems like injectors, sensor, vacuum leaks... things you can do YOURSELF.... Not "Reprograming" the software.... if your vehicle runs poorly or has a light on, the SCANNER will give you an idea of what to look at.. I dont see "reprogramming" as a daily problem.
Edited by steve(ill) - 27 Feb 2025 at 8:14pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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55allis ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 30 Jun 2020 Location: Griswold Iowa Points: 846 |
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My dad has a 1993 Volvo semi truck (farm use) that just recently went into limp mode and it wasn’t showing any codes, even had mechanic come and plug it in to a laptop and still nothing, so we was searching for bad wiring and cleaning connections (they all was pretty clean anyway) and noticed a speed sensor on the transmission had oil around the wires, that was the problem.
I have always tried to stay clear of computers because of that.. Edited by 55allis - 27 Feb 2025 at 11:29pm |
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1955 AC WD45 diesel with D262 repower, 1949 AC WD45
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