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Pre series d-17?

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Hunt4Allis View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 3:03am
I'm looking at a model that is supposedly a pre-series d-17 (1959)
What can anyone tell me about these early model d-17s?      

Edited by Hunt4Allis - 11 Jul 2019 at 3:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 4:45am
The first D-17's were just called a D-17, no series. The Series II, III & IV were later model tractors. 

The early D-17's were an upgraded model of a WD45 with larger crankshaft journals and bearings, more power and side mounting. More had power steering.

I grew up on WD45's (and I still love to drive them), but my D-17's (early no series and Series IV) are much nicer, and safer, to use.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hunt4Allis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 5:37am
Why are some d17s listed at 52 hp, and others all the way up to 63 hp?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 5:48am
There are three different horsepower ratings; engine, PTO and drawbar. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hunt4Allis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 6:00am
Ok so d17s no matter the series are all basically the same go rating?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 6:22am
Engine horsepower tells you little. Unfortunately that seems to be the way all modern tractors are rated. Drawbar horsepower in the most important - it takes into account transmission losses as well as the HP needed to move the tractor itself. PTO HP could be important if you are using PTO equipment. For tillage work, drawbar horsepower pretty much tells you how much beef the tractor has.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 10:05am
Drawbar HP may depend on how Nebraska Test weighted the machine. Sometimes, if you look, the slippage is much greater from one tractor to another. Maybe the cement was hotter that day or different traction situations such as a dirt track that was sprinkled with water from time to time during the WD45 testing. So I tend to rely on PTO HP to get the most accurate rating. PTO HP can be adjusted to sea level and Nebraska Test does do that. So a WD45 gasoline tested at 43.21 PTO @ rated speed at full load with air temp @ 75˚F, and barometer reading of 28.968 but adjusted to sea level they gave it a real PTO HP rating of 45.27 HP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 10:34am
It depends, Lonn. Some tractor makers held to the idea of building a heavy machine and using pull-type implements. AC made a lighter tractor and used mounted equipment with the advent of the WD. Lighter tractors put more HP to the drawbar. If you needed a little more weight to get through a tough spot you had a Traction Booster to give you that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 10:42am
sometimes the tests just dont make sense.

if you go and look at the nebreska tests for WC and UC,  it actually shows the wc pulling more than the UC, even with less power and weight.  Something isnt right there.
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD10W,HD16

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, R62, R72 HD15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frnkeore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 11:07am
The D17, came out in '57 at the end of the WD45's run, also in '57.

The D17 was how they were titled, when the Series II came out in '60, they started calling the first D17's Series I. That year over lapped, too. So there are both 1960 Series I and II.

In '59 there was a upgrade at Serial #24001. The only one that I can remember, at the moment is the final drives were strengthen.

I think the 63 HP figure, is the gross HP, meaning the HP w/o anything running off the engine. PTO HP, is a more reliable figure as it has all the accessories (pumps, alt/gen and fan) running.

Max draw bar HP (not max weight pulled) is also a good indicator but, there are a few variables to consider, such as surface, slippage, tire size, weight and tire tread foot print as well as compound.


Edited by frnkeore - 11 Jul 2019 at 11:13am
Frank
1959 D17 Series I #24001+, '59 D14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 2:24pm
Love mine! Go for it!
(was installing a new battery that day.) Note mine has wrong wheel colors, wrong grill color and wrong decals.


Belted to sawmill at our show 2018:

Ready to plow the garden this spring:

Stone boat pull at local Albion PA fair last fall. Nic at the controls:

Dirt track pulls:

Regards,
Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 11 Jul 2019 at 2:33pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 2:34pm
The "S2" had the wider drawbar bail and at s/n 24,001 had full-flow oiling system on the gas engines.  The "S3" models got the combination band & disc brakes and the stronger final drive gears, larger hydraulic sump with a filter, along with an oval muffler, dry air cleaner, headlites on the fenders and new decals on the hood. The best of them was the "S4" and it got the live hydraulic system, an optional and rugged 3-point hitch and the newer brake pedals with a ratcheting brake latch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by DougS DougS wrote:

It depends, Lonn. Some tractor makers held to the idea of building a heavy machine and using pull-type implements. AC made a lighter tractor and used mounted equipment with the advent of the WD. Lighter tractors put more HP to the drawbar. If you needed a little more weight to get through a tough spot you had a Traction Booster to give you that.
I'm speaking from looking at the stats. The Nebraska test showing drawbar HP, IMO, isn't quite as reliable as the PTO HP. The WD45 is weighted quite a bit for a portion of the test to show drawbar HP but like I said before, the track condition can change what is measured and depending on who decided to weigh the tractor to how many pounds. Later after the D17, the 170 and/or the 175 had a specified weight that Allis recommended as maximun so then the tractor was weighted lighter than the D17 but geared it up higher to get your measured drawbar HP. At least that is the way I understand it. But if you look at the testing you have to wonder why one tractor was tested at 10% slippage and another at 5%. That's where I think it is not accurate. Not like the HP measured at the PTO where the engine is loaded down from a specific rpm, high idle speed, to another specific RPM, rated speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 11:18pm
In short form, the 'most repeatable' power indication is PTO or BELT.  This is because the power transmission method's ability is very predictable, and the resulting load will be very consistent.

Drawbar horsepower depends on many variables, including, but not limited to ground conditions, tire diameter, ground speed, etc.

If you're interested in how agricultural ground traction calculations work, read the Wismer-Luth white paper on Agricultural Traction Prediction.  Harold identifies the math, but keep in mind that they didn't create the math, then perform tests to suit-  they performed thousands of tests, then extrapolated the math... it's an empirical data study, not an academic achievement exercise.

The short form answer, is that when weight distribution is set so that all but mebbie 5% of the tractor's weight is on the drive axles, ANY combination of tires, weights, etc., will yield a drawbar tension commensurate with about 30% of the tractor's weight.  Add more weight, drawbar tension will rise.  Reduce weight, it will fall.

Consider this fact:

Let's say a given tractor, with given weight, can pull 6600lbs 50ft in sixty seconds... that's 6600lbs*50ft=330,000 ft/lbs per minute.  33,000 is one horsepower... so that tractor is developing 10 drawbar horsepower.

To get more tractive effort, one could double the weight of the tractor, at which point, it could pull 10,000lbs, but in a lower gear, and only make 21ft in the same minute.  that's 10000*21= 210,000 ft-lbs in one minute, so only 6.36hp.

Let's say you drop it to 4000lbs, and pull it 310ft in one minute... that's 1,240,000 ft-lbs per minute, or 37hp.

Now,  lose more tractor weight... that reduces rolling resistance because tires aren't sinking as deep.  Reduce the draft load to 2000lbs, put it in road gear, and cover 1000ft... that's 2,000,000 ft-lbs per minute, or 60hp...

So you can see how varying the ballast weight, and the VELOCITY at which pulling occurs, results in 'horsepower' available.

And these pulls only last for a minute or so.

Compare that to a dyno:  You connect it, and put a load onto a machine, and that load is constant.  leave the load on for a long time, and the engine will start to get hot... and start to lose efficiency, and the lifespand will eventually start to erode quickly.  You'll eventually find a load-point where the cooling system cannot 'keep up' with the engine's waste heat generation.  At that point, the graph data above no longer matters, because the engine is on a rapid highway to hell... it will overheat... you've found the limitations of it's 'duty cycle'.  The maximum load level that can be used in ratings, is not the 'peak' horsepower, but instead, the 'continuous duty' rating.  A digital thermometer and graph paper is your friend here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frnkeore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 1:51am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

The "S2" had the wider drawbar bail and at s/n 24,001 had full-flow oiling system on the gas engines. 


Didn't s/n 24001 occur in 1959 with the S1?

Mine is s/n 24174, a black bar 1959, S1.
Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frnkeore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 2:03am
Something to remember about HP, it is a force, described by how fast something can be done and torque or maximum draw bar pull, is the actual amount of force/power generated.
Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 7:05am
In my mind there are FIVE series of the D-17 tractor. The wider drawbar bail and full-flow oil may very well be what some would call S-1, but it was two very important changes from the first batch of tractors. And then there was the belt driven power steering pump that happened before the S-3 models.

Edited by DrAllis - 12 Jul 2019 at 7:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 7:10am
I thought the full flow and drawbar upgrade took place at the unofficial series II serial number break? Maybe that is what you are referring to. I surely didn't know there was a power steering upgrade pre Series III.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 7:15am
I know I've seen some with the belt driven PS pump, but according to AGCOPARTSBOOKS it began at 42001 and up (S-3), so what I have seen must have been changed over or didn't have PS when new and got a PS kit field installed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hunt4Allis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 7:54am
Okay thanks for the info guys to get more back on my original train of thought what is the value on a series 1 d17 that seems to be all original intact and running and driving good?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frnkeore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 11:38am
I would say, $2500 - 3500, depending on condition and how it looks, including oil leaks and modifications. Mods can be done right or wrong, effecting the value.
Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hunt4Allis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 11:48am
Ok, from what I'm being told this tractor is all original and had no modifications done to it it looks really intact and like it has not been messed with (unlike a lot of the tractors I've been going to look at this one looks so far pretty good) he has it priced at 3000 and it includes a 7-foot rear blade
Thanks Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 11:59am
You need to go operate it for 30 minutes to get it warmed up really good. And I don't mean idling it. Take it down the road at full throttle. Many of these old gas tractors may run just fine, but when fully warmed up, you'll see a blue haze out the exhaust pipe. That usually means an overhaul is close to happening. That is $1500 in parts alone, let alone any labor. Four new tires are at least $1,000 bucks.  I just purchased an above average Series 3 with a NF for $1600 ...frt tires 90% rear tires 75 %.

Edited by DrAllis - 12 Jul 2019 at 12:00pm
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All the tires and rims are in good condition I already looked at them the only thing left for me to do is go there and drive it like you say. Hopefully I get a good feeling from this one...
Thanks Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote frnkeore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 12:55pm
Getting back to IDing a S1, my D17 Service Manual (Supplement 33), gives engine serial numbers for S1 up dates. I can't help with mine as, my block has been replaced and has no number but the manual gives 17-19978 and 17-17293. The 17293 is the 3/4 reach spark plug modification to the head.

In the Distributor section of the manual, it says "Tractor prior to Serial Number D17-24001 or engine number 17-19978 used distributor model number 1112584."
It also says, under Cylinder Block,  "The cylinder block was changed at serial number 17-19978 to incorporate a full flow oiling system.This engine was first used in tractor Serial Number D17-24001."

17-19978, included distributor advance, oil pump gearing (9/14 from 10/11) and a relief valve in the pump, rocker arm baffle, transmission housing, transmission input shaft (24001-31625), intermediate, idler & PTO shaft, Gas tank hold down.

17-15931 (gas) pump drive pulley.

I was in error, regarding final drive up dates, it was at D17-42001 and not D17-24001.
Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frnkeore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 1:26pm
I paid $1500 for mine and the guy drove 700 miles to deliver it to me. BUT, mine was no Cherry!

It had 1 good front and 1 good rear tire, bad steering arms and tie rods and the paint was really bad! So add $200 in parts to that, plus a lot of labor.

I'd try to get him down $200 - 500 and buy it. If the blade is a SC, it's worth about $500, $300 if a heavy 3 point.

I looked for over a year for mine, found nothing close by and the asking price for the ones out of my area, was about $3500-4000. They don't come up, very often in my area (West Coast) so, I'm at a disadvantage for them but, I consider them the best tractor, in their HP range.
.

There is one, right now, in my area (first one in 1 1/2 years, or more) for sale on CL, for $7500, with a DO trailer but, he won't get it, I'm sure.


Edited by frnkeore - 12 Jul 2019 at 1:34pm
Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hunt4Allis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 3:31pm
The one I'm looking at is serial number d17-20142.
What can you tell me about that one?

Edited by Hunt4Allis - 12 Jul 2019 at 3:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 3:36pm
D-17 chassis s/n 24,001 was supposedly the FIRST tractor built that has the full-flow oil filtering system on it. The filter is like a Fram PH-8A.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frnkeore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 6:08pm
It won't have the updates that I listed, with the possible exception of the later cylinder head but, the engine # will have to be checked to verify that (17293 or higher) or a spark plug pulled.

Still a good tractor but, be sure to bring those things up, when talking to him. The upgraded oil pump, would be worth at least $100 to me.
Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hunt4Allis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 11:34am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:


You need to go operate it for 30 minutes to get it warmed up really good. And I don't mean idling it. Take it down the road at full throttle. Many of these old gas tractors may run just fine, but when fully warmed up, you'll see a blue haze out the exhaust pipe. That usually means an overhaul is close to happening. That is $1500 in parts alone, let alone any labor. Four new tires are at least $1,000 bucks.  I just purchased an above average Series 3 with a NF for $1600 ...frt tires 90% rear tires 75 %.

I went and drove it around and did not notice any blue smoke. What exactly does the blue smoke indicate is happening to the motor parts, as in which ones are failing? You also say that "usually means"?(what else could it indicate?)
I'm very close to buying this as they all looked to be very straight and solid with good rims and tires and started right up every time every year worked and did not jump out of any gears, the brakes seem to work great also...
when the owner started it up and went to take off he had it in 2nd or 3rd gear and revved it up really high and as I looked back at it there was a small amount of smoke came out that I would say could be considered bluish but it was kind of a harsh take off on his part of driving it as far as I'm considered...
The high, nuetral, low shifter works good
All the lights worked on it(which was a bonus compared to all the rest of the larger tractors I've gone to look at lately)
this tractor seems to be in the best shape of any of them that I've looked at in this size range and age and seems to be the most original and complete with nothing bent or a whole lot messed with.

Thanks Matt
Thanks Matt

Edited by Hunt4Allis - 20 Jul 2019 at 12:28pm
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