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Poor mans power steering, and loader work

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littlemarv View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote littlemarv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Poor mans power steering, and loader work
    Posted: 19 Dec 2020 at 11:06pm
Over on Simpletractors.com, I learned of a simple modification to the steer axle years and years ago. It involves installing Torrington bearings under the axle to reduce steering effort. Over the years, I have performed this modification to all my garden tractors. It really reduces steering effort, especially if you have the dozer blade on the front. And if you are just mowing or have an implement on the rear, its pretty much effortless steering.
 
 
You drop the spindle out the bottom, and  put the washer on first, then the bearing, then the washer that I ground a few notches in to let the grease through. Reinstall the spindles, and cover it with a protective boot.
 
 
 
What does this have to do with farm equipment, you ask? 
 
 Few years ago, I bought a trip bucket loader from Lon over in Minnesota. Mounted it on the WD, man is that thing handy! I've never had a loader tractor before.
 
But boy, does that thing steer hard.
 
Hmmmmmmmm....... Here we go again!
 
Spent a little time at the drawing board downstairs in the littlemarvy R&D department.
 
Not long after,I was over in White Bear Lake for some Cummins training, so I was right in Lon's neighborhood again. Picked up an extra set of knees for a WD.  Set them downstairs on my workbench, and pretty much worked around them for almost a year. Other things get in the way, you know?
 
Well, we are having such an easy winter, and I'm tired of looking at them, lets get er done.
 
Took the hubs off, the wheel bearings are junk, like always. Heated up the Ackerman arms to get them off, removed the spindles, and removed the spindle bushings, which were shot as well.
 
 
There were two washers under the tube that bore the weight of the tractor when turning. They measured .160" thick. I bought two 1 5/8" kingpin bearings, which measured .840" tall. So, .840-.160=.680" difference.
 
Took the tubes to a friend who happens to own a machine shop, quite handy.
 
Had him machine the bore for the lower bushing up .680" Then remove .680" from the bottom of the tubes. This will make room for the bearings, but still keep a full bushing on the bottom for maximum surface area.
 
 
I've always used the freezer for parts that have a press fit. Put the new bushings in with the beef stew meat for a few hours, makes them a little easier to drive home.
 
 
Looks good as new!
 
 
 
Packed the kingpin bearings with a grease needle.
 
 
 
And began reassembly. Bearing on the bottom, and ackerman arm on the top. Very little up and down play.
 
 
Now to get the hubs back on. Stopped at the closest Allis dealer, they have a nifty Tisco kit, complete with bearings, races, felt seal, and washers.
 
 
I wasn't going to install them till spring, but its still pretty warm out. Brought the WD down, I need to work on the loader itself a bit too.
 
I changed the WD from narrow front to wide front years ago. I remember when I bought the axle from Alex09, I tried to adjust the axle, but it was stuck tight. Luckily it was stuck tight in the right spot, and the steer tires lined up with the rears.
 
Figured I'd better have a porta power on hand, and I sure am glad I did.
 
Unhooked the tie rod, turned the wheel 90 degrees, and used the porta power to slide the knee out a inch or two.
 
 
Who knows how long they've been in there. Once I got them to move a little ways, then I jacked it up to take the rest of the weight off, and used a small bottle jack to push them the rest of the way out.
 
 
 
Cleaned out the tube as best I could, and sanded the new knees a little bit. Applied some grease and slid them home.
 
 
Switched the wheels over, adjusted the bearings. Greased the kingpins both on the ground and jacked up. Got grease coming out the top of the tube, and out the bottom of the bearings, so I know they are getting lube. I was kind of worried about that. Thought about adding a second grease zerk down low, but maybe I don't need to.
 
 
So there, looking good. I think I will try and fashion some kind of rubber boot to clamp on to cover the bearing, to try and keep dust and dirt out. 
 
I bought the extra set of knees instead of modifying mine, just in case anything goes horribly wrong, I always have the old set of knees to slide back in if needed.
 
 
Too late to try and test it out tonight. Should get to test it out tomorrow.
 
Thanks for looking!
 
 


Edited by littlemarv - 02 Jan 2021 at 9:26pm
The mechanic always wins.

B91131, WC23065, WD89101, CA29479, B1, Early B10, HB212, 416H
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JimWenigOH View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimWenigOH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 5:57am
Nice and well thought out work. Looking forward to "The rest of the story".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B26240 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 6:02am
Hi Marv, great pictures and nice job as usual.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kurzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 7:41am
  Howdy littlemarv,
   Great idea! Lets hear from you with results. Will this bearings take the weight?

  Kurzy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 9:35am

A couple layers of 'bicycle tube' stretched over the bearing assembly might serve as a 'dust boot'.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 9:49am

It should be mentioned here that if anyone decides to attempt this modification, it is important to remember that the upper steering arm must be pressed or pounded off because of the key in the shaft.

Best way to do this is remove the solid square shaft from the square tube, then re-insert it 'upside down'

You can then pound the steering arm off.

G
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote littlemarv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 10:19am
There is no key in the shaft. Just two jam bolts. But that is a good idea for getting either style off

The bearing is a Timken T163. I can't seem to find any specs on that particular bearing, but I looked up a comparable one and the load capacity was 20,000 pounds. Lord help me if I break that bearing due to overloading.

Edited by littlemarv - 20 Dec 2020 at 10:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garden_guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 10:36am
Oh yeah, I wanna hear about the test on this thing, it looks amazing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 11:09am
What will probably and eventually happen is the bearing can't withstand constant pounding while standing still. Not saying it won't last a long time, but the pounding is what will fail it years down the road.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote littlemarv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 11:51am
I agree with Dr. Allis. In one of the Allis promotional videos, I think it was for an all crop, I thought I heard them say "Allis uses bronze bushings on all critical moving parts, and roller bearings if the shaft makes more than a full revolution."
This isn't going to make anywheres near a full revolution.

But at the same time, I got this whole idea from a heavy truck steer axle. They use the exact same type of bearing on 20,000 pound axles, just a little bigger diameter. And they don't make a full turn either. Granted, forces are probably buffered by the suspension.

As much use as this tractor sees, should last a long time. My main concern is driving through high water to get up in the woods.

Time will tell. I really went out on a limb here, but I know it eases the effort on the garden tractors.

And that's why I made a spare set, so I can always go back to original if something goes wrong.
The mechanic always wins.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 2:17pm

Marv

As much use as this tractor sees, should last a long time. My main concern is driving through high water to get up in the woods.

I'd be concerned about your front wheel hub bearings if you are submerging them in 'high water'.

I doubt if the 'felt seal' would keep out all the water.

I think it is meant more for dirt and dust.

G
............................................

An afterthought, if you do need to submerge the hubs, you might be able to replace the Felt Seal with the 'double lip' grease seal commonly used on Boat Trailer Axles, along with water proof grease.


Edited by Gary - 20 Dec 2020 at 2:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote littlemarv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 2:43pm
Yes. When the creek is at normal levels, it is just up to below the hubs. Sometimes when we are working up in the woods we forge through deeper water, and I know water can get in there. What can you do about it, other than don't play in the water.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote littlemarv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 4:42pm
Ok, went and loaded a two bottom snap coupler plow into the back of a truck. I set the front tires at 30psi, and I only drove on pavement. Steering effort was reduced, but not as much as I'd hoped. The final test will be to use it up at my dad's, on the gravel and in the dirt.

I'm also scheming to convert the loader from trip to hydraulic dump. Hopefully lightening up that bucket way out in front will reduce steering effort as well.

So, we shall see. I will report back on this as I get more adjustments made.
The mechanic always wins.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 8:52pm
i think the 8n fords use a bearing like that on the bottom of the knees
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LeonR2013 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2020 at 9:30pm
Little Marv a very nice job! Tell you what I did on my 45 when I rebuilt everything on it. Where you put in brass bushings, which is fine, I used the Mylar bushings. Went down to NAPA and we got out the calipers and checked the sizes and was able to match them up perfectly. Been quit a little while now but I think they were for a 9-10 thou. lb. Chevy. axle, I then used high temp. high pressure grease and I was surprised at how well it steered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2020 at 4:47am
Originally posted by littlemarv littlemarv wrote:

Ok, went and loaded a two bottom snap coupler plow into the back of a truck. I set the front tires at 30psi, and I only drove on pavement. Steering effort was reduced, but not as much as I'd hoped. The final test will be to use it up at my dad's, on the gravel and in the dirt.

I'm also scheming to convert the loader from trip to hydraulic dump. Hopefully lightening up that bucket way out in front will reduce steering effort as well.

So, we shall see. I will report back on this as I get more adjustments made.

Oh well, you can always try a larger diameter steering wheel!Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2020 at 6:59am
30psi seems way to low with a loader ... I ran 55 on the D-14 with 'real' loader.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrianC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2020 at 12:49pm
Curious, how does the model C compare to the WD in this area?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ac fleet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2020 at 1:05pm
My Super 99 GM Oliver tractor had what they called "easy steer" which was 4 half king pins in special caps and it always steered like power steering.---love that old tractor!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote littlemarv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2021 at 9:24pm
Well, after stewing on it awhile, I came to the realization that I was expecting too much out of this modification. When I loaded that plow with it the other day, I was turning one handed with the spinner knob. There is no way its ever going to turn that easy.
 
So, tonight I was turning the tractor around, and I used two hands, not the spinner. It wasn't to hard to steer after all.
 
When the loader is off, and with an implement hanging off the back, THEN you may be able to steer with one finger!
 
At any rate, sure doesn't look like I will be too busy wreckering anytime soon. Weatherman says January will be above normal temps. I was going to work on the loader come  spring, but, I got the time now, and macvette lent me his welder, may as well keep going.
 
These bushings were shot when I bought the loader. I made some pins out of some scrap, because the loader didn't come with any.
 
 
 
Removed all the remnants of bushings and farmer fixes that have been done over the years.
 
 
I had left the loader out behind the shed for the summer. Some industrial creature stashed a lot of twigs in the arms.
 
 
Got the arms cleaned up. Picked up some 1" DOM bushing stock, and some 1/4" by 3" by 3" plates. Drilled 1 1/4" holes in the plates, welded the bushings and plates on the towers, installed the bushings and plates on the arms, temporarily reassembled, and welded everything in.
 
 
 
 
Going to have to wait till spring for primer and paint. They say don't paint below 50 degrees, so I'm pretty sure it won't turn out well at 25.
 
A loader sure is useful around the yard up at Dad's, and in the woods. But a trip bucket  does have its limitations. Not to mention that the combination of manure bucket, tines, filler plate, and snow bucket is a LOT of weight, way out in front. 
 
So, if I can remove the manure bucket, tines, and filler plate, fill in the snow bucket, and mount that to the loader arms directly, we should be in tall cotton.
 
Removed the snow bucket, filler plate, and manure bucket.
 
 
 
Nice clean starting point. It will be even cleaner once I get all the trip mechanism stuff off as well.
 
 
 
 Thanks for looking.
 


Edited by littlemarv - 02 Jan 2021 at 9:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MACK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2021 at 10:06pm
I think next project should be to put some insulation in them walls then covering over that. Might shut that window where the flag is.
Looks like you are doing a great job .               MACK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote littlemarv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2021 at 10:35pm
I can work out there in the mid 20s on up. Hard to weld when the helmet is fogged up though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kurzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 6:38am

   Howdy littlemarv,
   Great to see your work in fixing up the old iron. I do some myself and like other ideas. Now for the painting in the cold. I thought the same thing just too cold to paint. But I was working up in the mountains here on a huge log cabin with a crew. We painted all the reinforcing iron plates right there in the cold! Foreman said keep painting and I did. Believe it or not, cold never hurt that paint. Still to  this day bright and shinny! 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 7:25am
Imagine if the spindle bushings in the knees were also needle bearings the size/length of the brass bushings already in there....
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Yes, I had thought of that as well. But wouldn't needle bearings would be quite a bit thicker as far as wall thickness goes, so you'd have to hog out the pipe to allow them to fit and there goes all your strength. That could be remedied with thicker wall pipe though.

I'm going to finish the loader refurb and we will see how it works. But yes, those needle bearings are in the back of my mind.

Here we go again, I will have more money stuck in this thing than if I'd just gone and bought another tractor with power steering.
The mechanic always wins.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote littlemarv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 8:05am
I was thinking, by moving that bottom bushing up, I'm actually increasing the side to side forces on the kingpin a little, because the kingpin is effectively a shorter lever with the bushing moved up. Granted its only about 3/4", but still, I wonder if installing the kingpin bearing is somewhat negated by the increased side load on the kingpin itself.

Sometimes I overthink things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote littlemarv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 8:15am
Looked on McMaster Carr, they have needle bearings for 1 5/8" shaft that are 2" OD. So , would have to measure the pipe to see how much meat would be left. Plus, those bearings are only 5/8" tall, so would have to stack 3 of them in there to get the same surface area.

I think those needle bearings would get pounded pretty quick from staying stationary, like Doc mentioned above.
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forget the needle bearings...

when i weld up something and it is COLD... i grind anything that needs it, wire brush off the welding dust, and then put a coat of primer on ( rattle can or brush) while the metal is still around 100 degrees.... Seems to work fine.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Rearranged and cleaned out in the garage. Got the bucket up on the bench, and removed the mounting brackets that held it on to the manure bucket. But I left some tabs sticking out on the sides, and left the ones on the bottom, so I have somewhere to lay my patch pieces in.
 
 
 
You can see in this picture, going to have to straighten out that bow in the top. The bucket is made of 3/16" steel, so I think I will weld the same size in, then reinforce the back where the brackets will go to pin it on to the loader.
 
Here comes the hard part. SOMEWHERE around here, I have a four spool control valve that I got a couple years ago. Been moving it around, muttering "that's for the loader on the WD". Now I have to go find it.
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I hide stuff from myself al the time. Kinda getting used to it...……...
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