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TomYaz 
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 Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 1:23pm |
 ALinIL wrote:
Make adjustments and go again, stop, get off and again observ. |
Knowing WHAT adjustment to make is the tricky part...If your read Butch's post on the other thread its enought to make your head spin!
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TomYaz
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 1:41pm |
Hey Al,
Reading and re-reading...
The "Hitch point" that is the imaginery pull point of where the plow tongue should centered, right?
If thats the case, and the plow tongue is centered on that point, why do we need to adjust the tongue any further with those setscrews? Isnt that the "magic point" of pull?
I would think once you have the tongue centered on that point, you need to then adjust the furrow wheel left sidewall to be 14"-16" away from the left side of the front moldboard landside. (figure "S" in your drawing)
I guess whats throwing me off is the need of additional adjustments to make it "pull straight"
OOPS I see the issue HP can only be determined once you have your tire set...
So lets get this step by step...
First thing. lets assume WD45 and 2x14 bottom plow.
1. We have to get the tread set. Is there a math formula?
Edited by TomYaz - 26 Oct 2010 at 1:47pm
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 2:25pm |
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You need the pulling point at the center of drag of the plow. Once the plow bottms are set that doesn't change much until you change the style of the shares. It will be right of the center of the line from the right hand end of the front bottom to the left face of the rear bottom. The center of that line is the center of the cut but since the plow is turnung dirt to the right, the plow wants to kick to the left. The landsides take some of that side thrust and moving the pull point to the right of center takes the rest.
As for wheel spacing, ideally with perfect dirt, you want the center of plow drag to be in line with the center of the tractor. But since the wheel in the furrow has bare fresh dirt and wrapping up the sides of the tire it grabs better than the wheel out on the surface which slips in the grass, cornstalks, bean straw or whatever is on the surface. I don't think its terribly important to have the plow load centered on the tractor because the wheels don't have the same traction. I is convenient then you don't have to steer so hard to keep in a straight line. A wide front is handy with the right front wheel bearing against the left side of the furrow. It would be handier for a narrow front to have the load centered to match the center of the pull which depends on the land conditions.
When you set the plow on the concrete you need to pull it back from the tractor to take up the slop in the hitch. If the hitch is worn or missing pieces the plow will cock and not plow straight.
Gerald J.
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nella(Pa)
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 2:43pm |
What will make a plow run to one side is a bent frog or a twisted beam that the frog is mounted on. To check to see if the plow is bent from hitting rocks, you can see it by eyeballing it or measure from the tip of the share to the beam of the bottom in front of the one you are checking. They usually bend to the left and sometimes the frog will bend down and make that bottom suck more than the rest of the bottoms. To straighten a twist, chain the plow to a tree while it is mounted on the tractor, hook a chain on the plow share tip of the bent bottom and bend it back with another tractor to the correct measurement. I did this to my 4 bottom JD rollover a number of times, used my D17 and had to jerk it pretty hard. It was a lot cheaper than buying a new post for the plow! Always put the best plow share on the rear bottom of the plow. On a level surface put a 10" block under the left rear tractor tire and adjust the three adjustment (center crank on plow and the two lifting links) points so the plow sets level on the floor and adjust the right rear tractor wheel so the plow will cut the appropriate number of inches(14", 16"). You are ready to plow, if the plow don't plow the proper depth adjust the crank adjustment on the plow, shorten it to make it go deeper or lengthen it for more shallow. This should solve your problem.
Edited by nella(Pa) - 26 Oct 2010 at 3:31pm
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TomYaz
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 2:49pm |
Gerald J. wrote:
You need the pulling point at the center of drag of the plow. Once the plow bottms are set that doesn't change much until you change the style of the shares. It will be right of the center of the line from the right hand end of the front bottom to the left face of the rear bottom. |
In other words: HP = .75(S)+(n-1)(.5*S)
Gerald J. wrote:
As for wheel spacing, ideally with perfect dirt, you want the center of plow drag to be in line with the center of the tractor.
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Well,
Plow hitch location = plow drag center per Al's formula
Plow hitch connected to tractor center
Ergo, plow drag center is now in line with center of tractor.
Now all we have to do is make sure the furrow wheel is not too far away or to close to the right share. ("S" on Al's sheet)
Once this is done, we shoulf be plowing straight, but we will need to adjust winging and depth...
Am I getting this right?
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ALinIL
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 3:54pm |
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Tom - In the diagram the "S" refers to the width of a share. S equals 14 in the case of a 14" plow. If you had a single 14" share, you would NOT pull it from the point. The share would twist to the right. By pulling from a point approximate 3.5" to the right of the point the share will pull straight and won't twist. Again this hitch point(pull point) will vary some with different manf of plow share and bottom. Obviously the hitch point will move further to the left with each additional bottom. Usually the wheel tread can not adjusted narrow enough the allow a small tractor CL(centerline) to align with the hitchpoint of a 2-14 plow. Again it ain't rocket science. Just think about a guy with a 1-16 plow and he pulls it behind a IH H. He needs to adjust the plow so it will pull straight and take a full cut. It can be done. The wheel tread is what you set it. Most manf will give you a wheel tread that is as close as possible to the hitch point. When I had a 4-14 behind a 45 I believe the wheel tread was about 74".
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 4:18pm |
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So if I'm understanding this correctly, the center of pull to make the plow go straight is not necessarily half way between the bottoms. If the bottoms were side by side, it would be, but because they are one behind and off to the side that changes things. So would the center of draft actually be closer to the RH bottom then? It has to take into account for some leverage because the LH is staggered to the left and rear of the RH right?
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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TomYaz
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 5:12pm |
ALinIL wrote:
Tom - In the diagram the "S" refers to the width of a share. S equals 14 in the case of a 14" plow. If you had a single 14" share, you would NOT pull it from the point.
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?????? Not sure where I said that. I thought I said:
"In other words: HP = .75(S)+(n-1)(.5*S)
Plow hitch location = plow drag center per Al's formula
Plow hitch connected to tractor center (via snap coupler)
Ergo, plow drag center is now in line with center of tractor"
Per the furrow wheel I said:
"Now all we have to do is make sure the furrow wheel is not too far away or to close to the right share. ("S" on Al's sheet)"
I screwed up on that. Corrected: The furrow wheel left edge should meet the outside(right) edge of right plow share with 0 to 1" gap between. (The 15" you mentioned)
So to repeat the written steps what you are saying on your schematic:
1. Calculate the pulling point distance using .75(S)+(n-1)(.5*S). Set plow tongue to that distance as measured from center of plow tongue to the outside(right) edge of right plow share
2. Hitch tractor to plow
3. Adjust furrow wheel (right) so that distance between left sidewall of furrow tire to
the outside(right) edge of right plow share is between 0-1"
Correct?
Edited by TomYaz - 26 Oct 2010 at 5:13pm
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Rick of HopeIN
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 5:41pm |
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My little B seems to dive into about any ground but I never can get a very clean furrow. I always figured it was just old and tired. It is sort of relaxing to use it on plow days and avoid all the hassle of setting up a bigger plow.
I have the bug to try a pull type plow behind the WC tho and get as frustrated as everyone else. I think I would have to take the B on the trailer just in case.
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1951 B, 1937 WC, 1957 D14, -- Thanks and God Bless
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ALinIL
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 5:42pm |
Ok Tom I think we are getting closer. In the above(1) the .75(S)+(n-1)(.5*S) is the point at which the plow pulls from. This is usually the point where the tongue attaches to the plow. With the 2 adjusting screws in the bottom of the plates that hold the beam crank, you need to adjust so that you pull the plow straight. Usually you will need to adjust the tongue to the left til the plow runs straight and the landslide is rubbing the furrow wall. Tongue too far to the left and the RH plow will not cut wide enough and the landslide will not rub on the furrow wall. Remember all adjustments are done with a scoured plow. Also remember the furrow you drive in also has effect on your settings.
Maybe I'm too critical. I have plowed for 50+ years with pull type and mounted plows. Also have plowed in competition.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 5:52pm |
Al,
No criticism taken! Just trying to get to where we are both speaking the same language!
When it comes to something like this which is much easier to understand in person, it can be hard to comprehend, at least for me it is. Thats becasue I am a "picture learner" and when it comes to understanding the written learning as opposed to the visual , I can get hung up on words and get easily get my plows "off center" so to speak!
This hangup on words drives me nuts in the AC manuals. They call something "x" in one paragraph, then its called "Y" somewhere else. I remember reading a paragraph naming a part and referring to the drawing that names the parts. The part name described in the paragraph is worded differently than the part name on the drawing which makes me wonder if I am looking at the right part...Confusion!!
Thanks for the schematic and helping me understand!
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ALinIL
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 6:08pm |
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Tom - Glad I was able to help. You are correct about trying to explain something in writtten as opposed to oral. One thing you will notice when you get a plow dialed-in is that it pulls much easier. Maybe someday I should do a AC mtd plow article. Only thing is, its ancient tech. No one really cares about plowing the correct way. On most plow days the guys just rut through the field. 2 weeks ago, I went to a plow day. The ground was HARD. I had to adjust plow to the conditions, but after 2 adjustments, the plow performed great.
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Don(MO)
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 6:28pm |
Al, I think you have done one nice job of telling the guys just how the math is on a plow pull type or mounted. I can't type that well or fast so I just stayed out of this one.
Dad was the guy who made me setup a plow his way as a kid and I guess some of it musted of stayed in the old head somehow. lol
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3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 6:33pm |
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Having plows behind one another instead of side by side (which wouldn't plow because there wouldn't be a furrow for the left bottom to turn into) doesn't affect the pulling center much. You want to pull from the right of center because the plow bottom, no matter where or how many pushes to the left because its moving dirt to the right. The rear bottom has more leverage at the hitch than the front bottom though because its on a longer lever arm behind the hitch.
Centering the pull behind the tractor is a waste of effort because the two wheels don't have equal traction. The wheel in the furrow gets better traction than the wheel running on corn stover, or grass, bean stubble, or hay and the difference depends a lot on the depth of the material and the moisture in the material and the ground. Sometimes one runs duals only on the on land wheel or runs more weights on the left side to try to equalize the tractive force so the tractor runs closer to straight if the plow pull is centered.
Gerald J.
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Jeff(WC)(MI)
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 6:41pm |
AL....i know what you mean about rutting through the fields on plow days, we have a large plow day that my friend hosts, 3-400 tractors plowing, he ends up with a mess! but we all have fun. But some of us "try" to do it right. I helped plow a whole field with my dad and a friend just trying to get a 53 plow on my wd45 to plow "right"...it did ok but i wanted to do a good job. I am unfortunately only 28 and didn;t grow up with this stuff, so i have to study extra hard to learn what some people know as old news. But i appreciate all the details people like you put out there and i am sure others do as well. I read everything and tuck it all away for the next time i drop my wheel in a furrow. that super77 and 4240, 3-14 plow i just bought does a beautiful job, but the furrow is not quite as clean as i would like, so i am going to try and figure that out with the back coulter. keep up the good knowledge, we are listening!
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Jeff(WC)(MI)
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 6:54pm |
Al-
just for fun, i plugged my info into your equation. now i bought my tractor and plow together, which i havn;t done before with the others so i always had to start from scratch, well this time the previous owner, who bought it brand new in 1956 and just turned 96, told me what to do. But heres what i found....from inside to inside of my back tires is 53 inches, exactly what it should be per the oliver plow manual for 3-14's. so i plugged in the 3-14's into your formula and came up with a HP of 24.5, from inside right tire...which is two inches shy of exact center between the rear tires, and therefore would put it exactly where the previous owner told me to put it..one set of holes to the right on the swinging drawbar....so my plow was already setup and i kinda worked backwards since my plow pulls straight and works good, but i guess thats kinda like math class, "work backwards to prove your work"
Edited by Jeff(WC)(MI) - 26 Oct 2010 at 6:55pm
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 10:02pm |
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I got to looking at it tonight and when I have the plow setting level on the floor, the entire bottom and landside all set level on the floor. Shouldn't there be sort of a "ramp" on the nose? This would explain why I have to turn the beaming screw so far to get it to dig in wouldn't it? I took the plow and tractor over to a blacksmith shop that has several older guys who are A-C fans that hang out. I'll know more tomorrow.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 1:04am |
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Thats in the fine adjustment area, and depends on the shape of the nose of the plow share. A deep suck share would stick out and down at the front to pull the plow into the ground with the bottom of the landside level. The landside probably should be about level. In a three point geometry to get the plow to go in I'd shorten the top link to tilt the plow forward and lengthen the left lift link to get the rear bottom back level with the front bottom. My plow would set on the noses of the plow shares that are turned down.
Long about 1950, my dad built a garden tractor to plow, pulling a 1 horse plow. It didn't want to dig in. He took the plow to an old time blacksmith who heated the tip of the plow share and turned it down a bit, probably a quarter or half inch, and it plowed for another 50 years doing about a quarter acre garden once a year. Your blacksmith may want to do that for your plow shares if they aren't too badly worn.
Gerald J.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 1:52am |
Gerald J. wrote:
Centering the pull behind the tractor is a waste of effort because the two wheels don't have equal traction. Gerald J.
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Sounds correct your saying unequal traction would skew how it pulls, but I think centering it is a good startin gpoint. Make adjustments from there to account for what your saying.
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pumpkin man
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 10:20am |
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you is said you had the left wheel on ablock then leveled the plow are you getting your righs & lefts mixed up rember the left side is the land wheel the right side is furrow wheel put block under the right wheel then make your ajustments
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John In.
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 12:26pm |
pumpkin man wrote:
you is said you had the left wheel on ablock then leveled the plow are you getting your righs & lefts mixed up rember the left side is the land wheel the right side is furrow wheel put block under the right wheel then make your ajustments |
Left wheel is on the land, right wheel in the furrow, now tractor leans to the right which means plow will lean right. to make plow level you would lengthen left lift link and shorten right lift link.. John
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John In.
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 12:40pm |
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Here's something we didn't think of. The first run through the field there is no furrow, this is where the plow runs level. Now with plow level on concrete then you go to field you would have to turn beaming screw to get defth then turn both lift links the same amount to level out plow in the ground. Am I right? John
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John In.
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 1:12pm |
Brian Jasper co. Ia wrote:
The 52 has no wheels and depth is just with the beaming screw. John, are those measurements from the manual for a 52, or just experience? How about tread width? In the "Plowing For Profit" video I have they are using a WD and a "round beam" plow. For 14" bottoms they say tread width center to center 56". |
I got this from my manual.. and yes for 2-14 and 3-12 and 3-14 is 56'' tread width.
I guessed that the right wheel was adjusted all the way in and then adjusted left wheel to get the 56'' width. John
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firebrick43
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 1:29pm |
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I only adjust my beaming screw for the first pass, put it full down, count how many revolutions from "level" so on the next pass I put it back to level all from the seat.
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ALinIL
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 3:23pm |
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John - In manual, wheel tread means just that, not offset tread. The placement of the LH wheel has nothing to do with setting the thread for plowing. You could have the LH wheel set at 6FT and it wouldn't matter. As for the 56" tread that probably was chosen because of some adjustment limitation of the wheels and different tire sizes.
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John In.
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 4:52pm |
ALinIL wrote:
John - In manual, wheel tread means just that, not offset tread. The placement of the LH wheel has nothing to do with setting the thread for plowing. You could have the LH wheel set at 6FT and it wouldn't matter. As for the 56" tread that probably was chosen because of some adjustment limitation of the wheels and different tire sizes. |
So as long as the right wheel tread sets in the furrow and the first plow turns the soil over into it you have that wheel where it belongs or is that where the width of cut adjustment comes in? John
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ALinIL
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Posted: 27 Oct 2010 at 5:34pm |
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John - The width of the cut is normally determined by plow size. ie; a 14" bottom is 14". If you choose to cut 12" or 16", that's up to you. The furrow wall is the reference point for measuring the 1st bottom. Normally the furrow wheel rubs the furrow wall and that give a uniform reference point. If you happen to be to a plow day and see a large 6-8 bottom plow, you may see the tractor run on land. The plow and the tractor are adjusted to perform that way. The same plow hitchpoint still applies. A 8-16 plow will probably have about a 100-120" wheel base so it can run on land.
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