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steve(ill) 
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Location: illinois
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 Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 10:01am |
Mount a hand start pony engine to the belt pulley
$100. 5 HP motor from harbor freight would be a cheap drive... thru the PTO.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Gary
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Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Peterborough,On
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 10:29am |
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I had the same thought as Lon(MN)
Mount a small B & S Engine in front of the Tractor Side Belt Pulley.
Install a Clutch Pedal disengagement lock similar to a WD or WD-45.
To start D-17: Lock Clutch Pedal down, Engage Tractor Belt Pulley,
start B & S Engine. While sitting in Tractor Seat, release Foot Clutch Lock, then SLOWLY release Foot Clutch to start cranking Tractor Engine.
I wouldn't tie up the rear PTO just for the sake of starting the engine.
G
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im4racin
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Joined: 12 Jun 2017
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 10:51am |
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I want to know what you are up to?
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JC-WI
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Location: wisconsin
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Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 10:57am |
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Park it on a steep hill...
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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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TomYaz
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Location: PA
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 9:31am |
 im4racin wrote:
I want to know what you are up to? |
No good 
I have an interest in "off-grid" living. Would like to be as independent as possible from delicate civilized things like say, public utilities....and from complicated modern stuff... Doesnt mean I want to live like that, but be ABLE to live like that...for instance I use electricity to pump water from my well, but I want to put in a hand pump to fill the tank and pressurize the line manually.....if my generator gave out. I got NG from my well, so my NG would be off grid- so my cooking and water heat is off grid.
Not having to depend on batteries is a part of that.
That kind of stuff... I just always found the self sufficiency topic interesting and never felt good having to depend on the grid.
Edited by TomYaz - 28 Dec 2020 at 9:32am
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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john(MI)
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: SE MI
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 9:57am |
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If all of this is to produce electricity by running a generator with a tractor so you can be independent from the electric company. It would be a lot easier to get a whole house generator that runs on NG. Or make a NG one yourself.
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D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446
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TomYaz
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 10:07am |
john(MI) wrote:
If all of this is to produce electricity by running a generator with a tractor so you can be independent from the electric company. It would be a lot easier to get a whole house generator that runs on NG. Or make a NG one yourself.
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I would want one of those too...I got a little brick milkhouse next to the house....
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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Coke
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Joined: 30 Sep 2018
Location: MIdwest
Points: 218
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 1:15pm |
Not sure how removing the battery gets you off-grid, but have you considered a small solar panel to keep the battery topped up? https://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-solar-battery-charger-62449.htmlDiesel is best for needing no electricity to run, but it would sure hurt to hand crank a large one.
Edited by Coke - 28 Dec 2020 at 1:17pm
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1957 D17 Diesel w/ M&W Pistons
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TomYaz
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 1:48pm |
"off-grid" to me means having to depend on "outside resources" as little as possible. A battery is a consumable made on the outside. Solar no use when battery goes bad.
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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DonDittmar
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 3:02pm |
The 226 engine was used as a power unit as well and those power units had mags and hand cranks so if you can make the hole in the bolster accept the hand crank then it shouldn’t be hard to do what you want to do
I can look in my parts books when I get a chance and see what’s needed
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D
Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start
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TomYaz
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 3:25pm |
DonDittmar wrote:
The 226 engine was used as a power unit as well and those power units had mags and hand cranks so if you can make the hole in the bolster accept the hand crank then it shouldn’t be hard to do what you want to do
I can look in my parts books when I get a chance and see what’s needed |
But as a power unit was the engine at the higher compression as the D17 version was?
When I look at my D17 grill there is a cut out for the hand crank to be inserted and the pully does seem to be shaped in a way to catch the crank end...but the guys here are saying there is something else needed I dont have...
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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Gary
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 6:23pm |
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Dr. Allis
Is the D-17 Engine a W Model (WD-45) or a G Model (D-14, D-15)
Would a front crankshaft pulley from a WD-45 fit a D-17?
G
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DaveKamp
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Location: LeClaire, Ia
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 9:44pm |
Tom, I know EXACTLY where you're goin'... and I'm that way myself. There's a difference between being dependant, and being able to enjoy the comfort of a certain modicum of independence. There is absolutely NO reason why anyone can justify snubbing another's pursuit of rugged individualism. My reason is simply location: My property's location is susceptible to outages, which usually happen under the worst weather circumstances.
My D17 is a series 1, and it HAD a crank-capable front pulley, and there IS a hole going through the bolster, as I removed said pulley, and utilized said hole for my live-hydraulic pump.
I don't see the compression ratio being significant enough to preclude hand cranking, particularly with a hot magneto. I've cranked over things that were a lot more beastly.
My 17 has a power steering pump, and off the top of my head, I don't know if that, or the distributor drive setup, would conflict with putting on a magneto.
My largest backup generator has a Hercules JXLD 338ci inline six, with a magneto, and a propane mixer. It will start, run, and generate just fine with NO battery required. Of course, it still has an electric starter, and a distributor... it will crank and run off of either, and will recharge it's battery once started. I've never HAD to crank it by hand, but I do... usually, I just step on the crank, as one step will push it past TDC, and after three pushes, it's got a live charge in a cylinder, and the moment the impulser clacks, off it goes.
In the circumstance of emergency/standby power, diesel fuel is certainly better in long-term storage than gasoline, but there is no comparison to the storage life of propane. My generators are fed by a pair of 1000-gallon tanks on the back of the property. A nasty ice-storm could knock down our lines for a week, and we do just fine.
If you REALLY wanna get your fuel-value out of it, plumb the engine's cooling system into a heat exchanger inside your house, and set up your furnace with a temp switch- if the heat exchanger water is hot, disable the furnace's fuel valve (just run the blower)... that way the generator's waste-heat is directed into your house, rather than discarded to waste... and your furnace isn't burning fuel!!!
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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TramwayGuy
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Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 10:00pm |
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Standing on the crank or pushing down with your arm is NOT the safest way to crank an engine...one backfire and you break your leg or arm. Always pull upward with thumb and fingers on the outside!
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
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Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 12:26am |
Thank you for that hint of advice, but I built the starting pedal specifically for step-starting the Herc, as it's a generator, on a skid... too low to the generator-shed floor to kneel down on the floor and pull safely... but I assure you, the impulser is significantly PAST TDC, and the mechanism will NOT allow an unintended motion to come back into the pedal. My daughter could easily and safely step-start it when she was eleven.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 6:36am |
DaveKamp wrote:
Tom, I know EXACTLY where you're goin'... and I'm that way myself. There's a difference between being dependant, and being able to enjoy the comfort of a certain modicum of independence. There is absolutely NO reason why anyone can justify snubbing another's pursuit of rugged individualism. My reason is simply location: My property's location is susceptible to outages, which usually happen under the worst weather circumstances.
My D17 is a series 1, and it HAD a crank-capable front pulley, and there IS a hole going through the bolster, as I removed said pulley, and utilized said hole for my live-hydraulic pump.
I don't see the compression ratio being significant enough to preclude hand cranking, particularly with a hot magneto. I've cranked over things that were a lot more beastly.
My 17 has a power steering pump, and off the top of my head, I don't know if that, or the distributor drive setup, would conflict with putting on a magneto.
My largest backup generator has a Hercules JXLD 338ci inline six, with a magneto, and a propane mixer. It will start, run, and generate just fine with NO battery required. Of course, it still has an electric starter, and a distributor... it will crank and run off of either, and will recharge it's battery once started. I've never HAD to crank it by hand, but I do... usually, I just step on the crank, as one step will push it past TDC, and after three pushes, it's got a live charge in a cylinder, and the moment the impulser clacks, off it goes.
In the circumstance of emergency/standby power, diesel fuel is certainly better in long-term storage than gasoline, but there is no comparison to the storage life of propane. My generators are fed by a pair of 1000-gallon tanks on the back of the property. A nasty ice-storm could knock down our lines for a week, and we do just fine.
If you REALLY wanna get your fuel-value out of it, plumb the engine's cooling system into a heat exchanger inside your house, and set up your furnace with a temp switch- if the heat exchanger water is hot, disable the furnace's fuel valve (just run the blower)... that way the generator's waste-heat is directed into your house, rather than discarded to waste... and your furnace isn't burning fuel!!!
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Wow Dave, you are waaayyy ahead of me! Thankfully I dont have such weather issues. I would intend to use the generator intermittingly for specific tasks. Basically want the ability to live like a Amishman if I NEED to. But I wouldnt mind having a conventional whole house generator.
I'm really thinking my Super C is the correct platform. Run it on propane for mobile work, run on NG for stationary work like power gen. Get a fast hitch set of implements.
I dunno, just once again daydreaming....I got a 175 I need to get operational first...
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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TomYaz
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Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 6:38am |
TramwayGuy wrote:
Standing on the crank or pushing down with your arm is NOT the safest way to crank an engine...one backfire and you break your leg or arm. Always pull upward with thumb and fingers on the outside! |
Yet I see youtube videos saying to pull down. I do like you explain it....Love the Super C for hand staring....often I can start it up cold with just one crank.
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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Coke
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Location: MIdwest
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Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 8:11am |
TomYaz wrote:
"off-grid" to me means having to depend on "outside resources" as little as possible. A battery is a consumable made on the outside. Solar no use when battery goes bad. |
That's an odd definition, but in the spirit of such, once you get the tractor going, doesn't the generator (alternator) make it self sustaining? Which would mean all you really need is a spark source to get it going whilst it cranks, couldn't you just put a capacitor where the battery is? That way you don't need to modify as much? And you have the bonus of still having an onboard power source for lights.
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1957 D17 Diesel w/ M&W Pistons
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TomYaz
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Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 8:30am |
>>That's an odd definition
Well call it what you will...does "goin Amish" sound better? Best way to not be caught with a uncharged or defected battery is by not having one.
>>doesn't the generator (alternator) make it self sustaining? Sure does
>> Which would mean all you really need is a spark source to get it going whilst it cranks, couldn't you just put a capacitor where the battery is?
I suppose, but where do I get my initial spark source? Isnt that where the magneto comes in?
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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Dusty MI
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Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 9:00am |
DaveKamp wrote:
Thank you for that hint of advice, but I built the starting pedal specifically for step-starting the Herc, as it's a generator, on a skid... too low to the generator-shed floor to kneel down on the floor and pull safely... but I assure you, the impulser is significantly PAST TDC, and the mechanism will NOT allow an unintended motion to come back into the pedal. My daughter could easily and safely step-start it when she was eleven.
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I've got to add something that happened many many years ago. A guy had a WD-45 that was not turning over well with the starter, so he put a starter gear reduction adapter on it. It then kicked and broke the adapter. Then it was discovered that the advance/retard in the ignition was stuck on advance.
Dusty
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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Coke
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Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 1:33pm |
TomYaz wrote:
>>That's an odd definition
Well call it what you will...does "goin Amish" sound better?
Best way to not be caught with a uncharged or defected battery is by not having one. |
Even a defective battery is probably good enough to provide an initial spark, if you are hand cranking the engine. And if you are self-sustaining, where are you getting your gasoline from? Surely that's a bigger consumable than a battery?
TomYaz wrote:
>>doesn't the generator (alternator) make it self sustaining? Sure does
>> Which would mean all you really need is a spark source to get it going whilst it cranks, couldn't you just put a capacitor where the battery is?
I suppose, but where do I get my initial spark source? Isnt that where the magneto comes in? |
The capacitor would get enough charge from the turning of the generator/alternator to provide your initial spark, or just leave an old battery in there, and hand crank either way.
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1957 D17 Diesel w/ M&W Pistons
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Gary
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Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 2:53pm |
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Tom
How much Tractor do you need ? Would a D-10 or D-12 suffice ?
The earlier D-10 and D-12's had a Rad Support similar to a B, C, and CA.
It had the proper cut-out for a Hand Crank. Prior to Series III
G
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TomYaz
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Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 3:22pm |
Gary wrote:
Tom
How much Tractor do you need ? Would a D-10 or D-12 suffice ?
The earlier D-10 and D-12's had a Rad Support similar to a B, C, and CA.
It had the proper cut-out for a Hand Crank. Prior to Series III
G |
I need something that will get me net 15HP at the PTO @ 540 RPM using NG/Propane. so about a tractor with 20% more HP? to make up for switch from gasoline??===20HP PTO?
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 30 Dec 2020 at 10:30pm |
[QUOTE=Dusty MI]... A guy had a WD-45 that was not turning over well with the starter, so he put a starter gear reduction adapter on it. It then kicked and broke the adapter. Then it was discovered that the advance/retard in the ignition was stuck on advance. [QUOTE]
Which is EXACTLY WHY when Bosch patented the Impulse Coupling, it was such a success:
Not only did it provide a very rapid 'flip' to the magneto armature (generating a really hot spark at basically NO crankshaft speed), it also delayed the spark by almost 20 degrees.
A properly set up magneto, and properly timed engine, will absolutely never 'kick back'. If it does, it's because the magneto is not set up properly, or it's not properly timed.
if the magneto's impulser coupling is not retarding, it is not impulsing, either, because the 20 degree retard is how the impulser coupling's clock spring winds up in the first place.
Most people don't have a clue of the 'why' when they repeat the hand-crank warning, they have no concept of where that warning originated... those that do, are those that own, or have owned a Ford Model T, or a Ford Model A. Why? Because Henry did NOT see fit to install OTHER manufacturers' components on his products, nor did he take kindly to the concept of paying royalties on others' patents. As a result, he deemed his ignition systems 'good enough', and for incidents where the Model T's buzzer coil, timer, and flywheel-magnet generator scheme, or the Model A's hand-op spark advance resulted in an injury, he identified it as 'operator error'. I assure ANYONE who takes a hand to the crank of my '24 T or '29 A, that if they don't EXPLICITY follow the proper method of cranking, REGARDLESS of how they hold the crank, or address the pull, the engine WILL kick them, and break their forearm. Period.
If you look at the incidence of hand-crank injuries for those starting engines with impulser couplings, particularly the Bosch-patent types used in American Bosch, Wico, Fairbanks-Morse, and others, you'll find that MOST of those injuries are due to the crankshaft bore and crank becoming bound, and not properly releasing from the crank, coming around in the FORWARD direction, and striking the individual who had already had the crank pulled from hand. If they were injured by a kick-back, it was because they did not properly time the magneto.
Yaz- Some people 'get it'... the rest, just don't.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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TomYaz
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Posted: 30 Dec 2020 at 11:17pm |
Hi Dave,
If I ever get to doing this....big "if" as I have more ideas then cash or time, I got to be sure to get a magneto edumacation from ya! Lot of stuff you said went WOOOSHHH over the head due to my ignorance!  |
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If its not an All-Crop, it all crap!
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