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jlbintn 
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 Topic: My B Starter (and now magneto) project
Posted: 26 Oct 2020 at 5:10pm |
I am just honestly at a loss of words that this happened right after I got the head re-installed. Just totally effing unbelievable.
It's a 12 volt system, and best I can make out from the stamp is it is a Delco 1107043.
The bolt hole that mounts the starter to the frame is no longer round. I have replaced the drive on the armature, but still little luck. The starter is not holding ground, or the flywheel is not engaged. Even tightening down that toggle bolt causes the starter to shift backwards toward the seat.
I was looking for a replacement shroud, but can't seem to find one for that particular starter. I see plenty of starters for 6 volt systems, but not much for 12 volt systems.
I think I can rebuild the starter, but that housing hole is going to have to be welded full, ground and re-tapped I believe.
Any suggestions on how to proceed. I will try to post some pictures later. Thanks again for any help offered.
John
Edited by jlbintn - 08 Nov 2020 at 3:18am
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mdm1
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Posted: 26 Oct 2020 at 5:32pm |
A lot me more knowledgable people than me will reply but the starter doesn't care if it is 6 or 12v. 12v would be neg ground and that is not an issue either. That's why you see no 12v starters. They can be rebuilt to 12v but I think most of us just use the 6v starter on a 12v conversion and just be careful not to do alot of grinding with it. Hope that helps alittle bit till the experts crime in. Good luck.
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Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK!
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Dick L
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Posted: 27 Oct 2020 at 6:18am |
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The stud that locks the starter in place is 1/2". Rather than try welding you can drill and tap it to 5/8". The end of the stud needs to be shaped to match the indent in the starter. That stud not only locks the starter in place it is the way it is grounded. Those that think the ground comes from the outside of the starter in the torque tube should try making their battery cable clamps a slip fit on the battery.
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jlbintn
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Posted: 27 Oct 2020 at 6:56am |
It might be hard to see from this picture, but that hole is not right. The armature and internals could probably use replacing after all this time, that I can do.... I'm worried about that hole though.... it really does look oblong, even with the taper.
From time to time (since I got the tractor last year), the starter would lose ground. I would have to loosen that bolt, and re-snug it to get juice to it. Even when I got it locked down tight, it would eventually slip back - towards the seat, then it was wash, rinse, repeat. My neighbor and I had the same idea - tap it - but there does not seem to be enough metal - towards the taper - to put a proper tap.... it's really worn out in there. Maybe that's normal.... I just don't know without seeing enough of these things. I guess I could go with a 6 volt starter, they seem to be available.... pricey for the newbies though.
Edited by jlbintn - 27 Oct 2020 at 7:07am
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Alberta Phil
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Posted: 27 Oct 2020 at 10:09am |
That hole looks like it has the remains of some threads in there. The original hole is drilled with a taper to match the lock bolt and was never threaded. Some one has attempted to modify that one. You should probably try to find a good used nose cone with the proper tapered hole or you will continue to have problems. Steve at B&B on this site can probably help you out with that and also a rebuild of the starter if it needs it.
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C in Concord
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Posted: 27 Oct 2020 at 10:52am |
That image clarifies things for me. I'm with Phil, you need to replace the nose section. Alex09(WI) or Stookless can probably hook you up. Both have served me well on my project. Ben
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Leave things better than you found them.
1941 Model C (restored 2020)
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HoughMade
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Posted: 27 Oct 2020 at 11:39am |
Are you using a regular bolt or the proper starter bolt like pictured below?
I don't think the hole is the problem other than the threads in the bellhousing, on the bolt and the hole should all be wire brushed bright for a good connection. Just line the hole up and tighten it down as far as it will go and then tighten the jam nut. I think a lot of B starters have holes wallowed out on one side like that.
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1951 B
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jlbintn
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Posted: 27 Oct 2020 at 12:53pm |
I am using the proper starter bolt, as pictured above.
Should the starter, once tightened down, move? Because, no matter how tight I get the jam nut, after getting the bolt tight, it eventually starts working backwards and I eventually lose ground and I have to re-tighten.
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KMAG
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Posted: 27 Oct 2020 at 1:15pm |
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That retainer bolt hole seems too far back on the nose. It is normally centered between the starter cone's locating bands.
A photo with the starter mounted looking into the starter retainer bellhousing bolt hole would be helpful to see if there is an alignment problem.
Edited by KMAG - 27 Oct 2020 at 3:04pm
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Dick L
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 7:04am |
There is not supposed to have threads in that hole. Some one has messes up the starter lock (pocket).
I just check ebay to get a picture to post and see the brand new starter cones have a threaded hole. The only way that would work is if the torque tube was not threaded. All the starters I have here has a taper hole that the tapered end of the tapered stud locks the starter in place. With that large of a hole the tapered stud would never work properly. You might get it to work by using a longer bolt without a taper that would go all the way thru the cone casting. I would then add a ground wire from a starter bolt the the torque or to where the battery ground bolts to the tractor.
To use a new starter cones with the threaded hole and have success you would need to remove the threads from the torque tube or the starter could not pull up tight.
Edited by Dick L - 28 Oct 2020 at 7:29am
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jlbintn
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 9:59am |
This is the starter, perfectly aligned with the tube opening.
I have noticed that, of all the starter nose cones I have found, none match the one I have.
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jlbintn
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 10:05am |
 Dick L wrote:
There is not supposed to have threads in that hole. Some one has messes up the starter lock (pocket).
I just check ebay to get a picture to post and see the brand new starter cones have a threaded hole. The only way that would work is if the torque tube was not threaded. All the starters I have here has a taper hole that the tapered end of the tapered stud locks the starter in place. With that large of a hole the tapered stud would never work properly. You might get it to work by using a longer bolt without a taper that would go all the way thru the cone casting. I would then add a ground wire from a starter bolt the the torque or to where the battery ground bolts to the tractor.
To use a new starter cones with the threaded hole and have success you would need to remove the threads from the torque tube or the starter could not pull up tight. |
Yes, I noticed that when my neighbor and I found a bolt to mate up with those threads in the cone. It stopped back and forth movement, but it did not lock the starter down tightly.
Since I am having a hard time finding that particular nose cone, I think my neighbor and I will attempt to weld the hole, then retap with a slightly smaller bolt, to bypass the threads in the torque tube.
If I understand you correctly, the threads in the torque tube should not be there?
I am going to rebuild the starter. It would be nice to find that particular nose cone. I wonder why everything I have found does not seem to match up to what I have, even though some that are for sale say those cones should work with the 1107043.
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jlbintn
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 10:15am |
Getting a little ahead of myself here, but thinking past this particular project if it does not end with success....
what would be involved to convert the tractor back to 6v, obviously the alternator has to go.
I don't want to go there, but it would beat resorting to hand cranking I suppose.
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Dick L
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 12:20pm |
I think it is cast iron and welding will most likely cause it to crack if not heated and cooled at the proper rates. If the longer bolt holds from moving back which would expect as the front of the hole has not been compromised, I would hook up a ground wire from one of the starter bolts to a bolt under the battery box and not worry about it.
Edited by Dick L - 28 Oct 2020 at 12:28pm
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KMAG
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 12:59pm |
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Dick L is correct about welding cast iron. There are also different types of cast iron. Sometimes a quick MIG weld works for non-critical uses on cast iron.
A new cone will run $55 plus shippingor find a good used cone - best fix.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 1:26pm |
Since I am having a hard time finding that particular nose cone, I think my neighbor and I will attempt to weld the hole, then retap with a slightly smaller bolt, to bypass the threads in the torque tube.
If I understand you correctly, the threads in the torque tube should not be there?
NO.. I dont think you understand.. The bolt is POINTED on the end.. It screws INTO THE TORQUE TUBE and the point goes INTO THE STARTER NOSE.. It PUSHES the starter toward the motor and forms a GROUND for the elect to work.. The "HOLE" in the starter nose is suppose to be tapered and match the point on the BOLT... The THREADS in the TORQUE TUBE are what holds it all together.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 1:30pm |
You can grind the taper hole in the starter nose a little to reform it... you can also grind the point / end of the bolt so it fits "better" into the starter nose hole... A good FIT will guarantee a good ground and will stop the starter from MOVING back and forth.
The starter may not set ALL THE WAY INTO THE TORQUE TUBE HOLE.. Seems to me that when i install the TAPER BOLT and it pilots INTO THE STARTER NOSE HOLE, that the starter motor may be 1/8 OUT from bottoming out in the torque tube.
Edited by steve(ill) - 28 Oct 2020 at 1:32pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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KMAG
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 1:32pm |
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Another good idea (but I'm biased)! Tap and/or drill and tap your existing starter cone hole and install a hex pipe plug using red Loctite to help keep it in place (maybe stake it while you're at it). Drill and chamfer hole in center of plug centered through bellhousing opening.
Install original lock bolt setup. It should be as good or stronger than the original design.
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HoughMade
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 1:44pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
You can grind the taper hole in the starter nose a little to reform it... you can also grind the point / end of the bolt so it fits "better" into the starter nose hole... A good FIT will guarantee a good ground and will stop the starter from MOVING back and forth.
The starter may not set ALL THE WAY INTO THE TORQUE TUBE HOLE.. Seems to me that when i install the TAPER BOLT and it pilots INTO THE STARTER NOSE HOLE, that the starter motor may be 1/8 OUT from bottoming out in the torque tube. |
All good points. Look at the space on mine in the pic below. It works perfectly and doesn't get loose. (I also wire brushed the inside of the starter hole on the torque tube and the outside of the starter nose where it rests against the hole for added contact).
I took this picture some time ago for another purpose, but you can see how far the body of the starter is from the hole.
Edited by HoughMade - 28 Oct 2020 at 1:45pm
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1951 B
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jlbintn
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 1:57pm |
That looks a bit similar to where mine ends up, after engaging it, over time. To everybody else that offered it, thanks for the advice/heads up with the welding option.
Edited by jlbintn - 28 Oct 2020 at 1:58pm
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jlbintn
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 2:01pm |
KMAG wrote:
Dick L is correct about welding cast iron. There are also different types of cast iron. Sometimes a quick MIG weld works for non-critical uses on cast iron.
A new cone will run $55 plus shippingor find a good used cone - best fix.
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The problem I have run into so far, are the mating holes on the nose not matching the starter cylinder. On my cylinder, there are the two bolt holes, and a tab that have to line up with the nose. Maybe I just haven't looked in the right places yet, but I have looked at a few.... prices ranging from $50-75.
The search continues....
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jlbintn
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 2:06pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
Since I am having a hard time finding that particular nose cone, I think my neighbor and I will attempt to weld the hole, then retap with a slightly smaller bolt, to bypass the threads in the torque tube.
If I understand you correctly, the threads in the torque tube should not be there?
NO.. I dont think you understand.. The bolt is POINTED on the end.. It screws INTO THE TORQUE TUBE and the point goes INTO THE STARTER NOSE.. It PUSHES the starter toward the motor and forms a GROUND for the elect to work.. The "HOLE" in the starter nose is suppose to be tapered and match the point on the BOLT... The THREADS in the TORQUE TUBE are what holds it all together. |
Thanks for clarifying that, I thought the same, but wanted to make sure I was understanding what the poster had said. 
That hole in my nose is so deformed, that when I tighten that bolt it actually pushes the starter back away from the motor.... guessing around an 1/8"....
edit to add
when I install the starter into the tube- before threading the bolt, the holes line up perfectly and the tip of the cone is flush against the tube.
Edited by jlbintn - 28 Oct 2020 at 2:09pm
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jlbintn
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 3:02pm |
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 3:40pm |
I ment when you put the bolt into the torque tube and tighten, it PUSHES the starter toward the CENTER of the tractor and it gets TIGHT.. The starter is slightly smaller than the hole it sets in.... After tightening, the starter should be 1/8 of an inch rearward from bottoming out in the torque tube hole..
Im not sure you really have a problem.. CLean every thing up and set the starter in the hole, 1/8 inch from bottoming out... Install the taper plug and tighten it into the torque tube... it will pilot into the starter and BIND it into the hole.. What part of that does not work ?? ...... I have seen some distorted holes in the nose and threads in the nose and that normally is not a problem.... Yours appears the hole was moved FORWARD and had threads in it... If you screw the taper bolt into that area, the starter has to move FORWARD to get loose... you may have a little over 1/8 clearance between the starter and the bellhousing at the entrance hole... as long as the fly wheel engages, that is fine.
Edited by steve(ill) - 28 Oct 2020 at 3:46pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Dick L
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 6:52pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
I ment when you put the bolt into the torque tube and tighten, it PUSHES the starter toward the CENTER of the tractor and it gets TIGHT.. The starter is slightly smaller than the hole it sets in.... After tightening, the starter should be 1/8 of an inch rearward from bottoming out in the torque tube hole..
Im not sure you really have a problem.. CLean every thing up and set the starter in the hole, 1/8 inch from bottoming out... Install the taper plug and tighten it into the torque tube... it will pilot into the starter and BIND it into the hole.. What part of that does not work ?? ...... I have seen some distorted holes in the nose and threads in the nose and that normally is not a problem.... Yours appears the hole was moved FORWARD and had threads in it... If you screw the taper bolt into that area, the starter has to move FORWARD to get loose... you may have a little over 1/8 clearance between the starter and the bellhousing at the entrance hole... as long as the fly wheel engages, that is fine.
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The hole is larger than the taper. If you go ebay Steve and type in Allis Chalmers B starter cone you will see the new cones have the larger hole with threads. To make those to work properly you would need to remove the threads in the torque tube to draw the cone tight in the torque tube. Those would need to be drawn up tight rather than forced down tight as the old starter were.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Oct 2020 at 8:21pm |
Thanks Dick... learn something every day.. Never heard of that... but i never needed a new one either !!!
In that case i would warm up the nose with a propane torch, then weld the hole up and remachine for the taper.
Edited by steve(ill) - 28 Oct 2020 at 8:22pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Dick L
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Posted: 29 Oct 2020 at 5:32am |
steve(ill) wrote:
Thanks Dick... learn something every day.. Never heard of that... but i never needed a new one either !!!
In that case i would warm up the nose with a propane torch, then weld the hole up and remachine for the taper. |
I would guess that China had a better idea! 
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 29 Oct 2020 at 9:22am |
The old pinch bolt system was a pretty crappy design to hold these Starter motors in place. Being most of the weight is to the rear of the unit, it didn't take much for the Starter to become loose and lose its ground. The rings on the nose cone are also for grounding purposes on some applications. I've repaired some of the nose cone mounting holes with either JB Weld or if the hole was really bad (like yours is) had my welder fill the damaged part of the hole, and I would taper it for the pinch bolt to fit much more snug in the cone. Another thing to inspect is to make sure the threads in the hole in the torque tube are not stretched to where the bolt is loose and when the jam nut is tightened cocks the Starter motor, or does not hold the unit tight as it should. This will cause mis-alignment problems possibly cracking the nose cone or pre-maturely wearing out the ring gear teeth on the flywheel.
The nose cone problem you are having is not new. There were a lot of these old Starter motors that had different indexed nose cones that were used for different applications. I myself had some problems finding the correct cones for certain motors over the years and I rebuild the damn things. A lot of my old suppliers are gone and it makes it tougher to find the CORRECT parts for certain units. Some I would have to index myself to make the cone work for the application. I've come across a lot of goofy stuff over the past 50 years I've been rebuilding Starters, especially these older Delco units, and even more so with other older brands such as Autolites, & Prestolites.
On some of the high torque pulling Starter motors I've built over the years, I would make the suggestion to the customer to build a support bracket to support the rear of the Starter to keep it from moving when my high torques engage to a high compression pulling engine. This keeps the motor straight and snug to where it won't move and all torque gets transferred to the engines flywheel when engaged. If you run into the problem of repairing the nose cone, you might want to consider that idea to help support the rearward weight of the unit and keep it aligned correctly. A rear support helps emensly with the poor pinch bolt design. Of coarse, like anything else, designing a rearward support bracket depends on the application involved... HTH Steve@B&B
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Brian G. NY
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Posted: 29 Oct 2020 at 10:22am |
[QUOTE I would guess that China had a better idea! [/QUOTE]
Different, but I'm not sure better.
There are a few nose cones on ebay right now and the vendors say they fit Bs, Cs, CA,s, WCs, WDs and WD-45s. I don't know how that is possible since the location of the tapered hole has to be different between the smaller and larger engines. If you look at the threaded holes in the blocks, you will see that, in the case of the larger engines, the hole is exactly perpendicular with the crankshaft. It is not on the smaller engines. Assuming the housing is the same diameter, it would probably be fairly easy to machine a new tapered hole in a WD-WD-45 housing so it would fit either engine. The original tapered hole is located dead center between the two machined surfaces. Although the hole in jibintn's housing is really messed up, it appears to me that there is enough of the original hole left to allow the tapered bolt to be inserted far enough to still hold the starter in its correct position. Here is a picture of a nose cone which I think came from a WC. You can see that the tapered hole is located differently than the one on the B.
t 
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jlbintn
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Posted: 29 Oct 2020 at 10:55am |
Thanks again to all of you. Lots of good information, ideas and suggestions. Got the innards for the starter today, going to completely rebuild it, thinking about how I want to go forward with the cone.
Welding the hole and re-tapping is still at the top of the list.
Heating that nose up before welding.... minimum temperature should be what since it's cast iron?
I've read 300 F, I've read 500 F minimum. Then letting it cool slowly, immersed in sand.
Thanks again. I'll keep y'all posted on the progress.
p.s.
I like the idea of a bracket, btw. Might be an option.
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