This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity.
The Forum Parts and Services Unofficial Allis Store Tractor Shows Serial Numbers History
Forum Home Forum Home > Other Topics > Shops, Barns, Varmints, and Trucks
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


May have some Issues brewing

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
DMiller View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 33682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: May have some Issues brewing
    Posted: 05 Oct 2024 at 5:58pm
On truck I daily run.  Is a Heavy monster at 35,000 Empty, then is a Bigger issue, sat down with tape measure, and did the Old Basis Bridge Formula that seemingly NO ONE ever bothers with anymore.  Used to hand build Dump Pup Trailers for behind Tandem Dump trucks and had to alter several that could not meet Bridge Law.  Current truck and trailer measure out well above 52' long, HOWEVER, under Bridge Rues must measure from Front driver to rearmost trailer, can ONLY achieve 34 feet there, shuts off the Max GVW to 64500 against license weight of 80,000, close to 8 ton I generally carry as TOO Much.

MoDOT has begun to stretch the tapes recently.


Edited by DMiller - 05 Oct 2024 at 5:59pm
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Lars(wi) View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Permian Basin
Points: 7978
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lars(wi) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2024 at 8:44pm
34 feet from the axle of the forward driver, to the axle of rearmost of the trailer?
Are you allowed to have a tag axle in front of the drives?
I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
Back to Top
DMiller View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 33682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2024 at 4:35am
Truck has not the WB to do that, what most do is add weight dispersal axles on the trailer frame to reduce axle to axle weights and reduce the signature as required by the Bridge Formula, which BTW is out of date to the 1950s.

This trailer is considered a Quarter Frame, was intended for use in building demolition inside cities where a Commercial Zone standard eliminated the Formula as to roads destructions. In STL KC or Columbia MO can exceed axle weights by either adding axles or buying a permit, on the Interstate system is not allowed.

Edited by DMiller - 06 Oct 2024 at 1:21pm
Back to Top
truckerfarmer View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2013
Location: Watertown, SD
Points: 3274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truckerfarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2024 at 8:22am
Add 12,000 for your steer axle. That will get you to 76,500, so just short of 80,000.
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!
Back to Top
DMiller View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 33682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2024 at 1:21pm
Incorrect, Bridge Formula once get to the Drives and Trailer four axles that is ALL allowed.  Bridged Weight.

Actually took a class on this nearly as confusing as it looks BS Formula, State Brown shirts noted the Drop in GVW once lose trailer length, we all tried to add the steer but the number is Total GVW reduced due to short length.
Diagram of a truck with axles numbered 1 to 5 from front to back. Gross weight of the total truck is 80,000 pounds: 12,000 pounds is applied to axle 1, and 17,000 pounds is applied to each of axles 2, 3, 4, and 5. The distance between axles 1 and 3 is 20 feet, the distance between axles 1 and 5 is 51 feet. and the distance between axles 2 and 5 is 35 feet.



Permissible Gross Loads for Vehicles in Regular Operation. This table provides permissible gross loads (in pounds) for vehicles in regular operation based on the bridge formula. The value for L ranges from 4 though 60, and the number of axles ranges from 2 through 9. The interstate gross weight limit is identified as 80,000 pounds.


Edited by DMiller - 06 Oct 2024 at 1:24pm
Back to Top
Coke-in-MN View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Afton MN
Points: 41947
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2024 at 4:25pm
When I was pulling tank trailers and the 80,000 GVW - couple tickets for overweight .
Found the front axle was light by what tickets were for . Never over the 80 but off on the bridge weight .
Finally brought scale weight to shop foreman to have him move trailer pin to put weight on front axle - moaned about that would put some other trucks to heavy if they pulled the same trailer . It seems their answer was pay the fines , not do the work . 
 90% of the time I pulled the same trailer over 3 years with same power unit day cab, and they were worried some owner operator with a sleeper might use the trailer . 
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
Back to Top
Coke-in-MN View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Afton MN
Points: 41947
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coke-in-MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2024 at 4:28pm
One of the gravel pits I pulled out when I hauled rock , had a IH dump truck in shop most of the time , Asked about it - said it was so heavy it could not hold but 1/2 load their other trucks carried - so they used it as a PARADE TRUCK - cleaned and polished but not worked .
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
Back to Top
truckerfarmer View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2013
Location: Watertown, SD
Points: 3274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truckerfarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2024 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by DMiller DMiller wrote:

Incorrect, Bridge Formula once get to the Drives and Trailer four axles that is ALL allowed.  Bridged Weight.

Actually took a class on this nearly as confusing as it looks BS Formula, State Brown shirts noted the Drop in GVW once lose trailer length, we all tried to add the steer but the number is Total GVW reduced due to short length.
Diagram of a truck with axles numbered 1 to 5 from front to back. Gross weight of the total truck is 80,000 pounds: 12,000 pounds is applied to axle 1, and 17,000 pounds is applied to each of axles 2, 3, 4, and 5. The distance between axles 1 and 3 is 20 feet, the distance between axles 1 and 5 is 51 feet. and the distance between axles 2 and 5 is 35 feet.



Permissible Gross Loads for Vehicles in Regular Operation. This table provides permissible gross loads (in pounds) for vehicles in regular operation based on the bridge formula. The value for L ranges from 4 though 60, and the number of axles ranges from 2 through 9. The interstate gross weight limit is identified as 80,000 pounds.

Better look again. Your own charts prove my statement.
GVW includes all axles. Using your theory of only using the trailer and drive axles for a GVW of 80,000, you would have to be able to carry 40,000 at each end. that would require a 10' spread at each end.
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!
Back to Top
truckerfarmer View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2013
Location: Watertown, SD
Points: 3274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truckerfarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2024 at 10:21pm


I've played the bridge formula game. These are a couple of the rigs I've run. The double belly dump was legal for 142,000. The sidedump as I recall was legal for 94.500.
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!
Back to Top
DMiller View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 33682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2024 at 3:16am
Take it up with DOT, they were the ones that onstructed the reduced level as the Four axle weight reduced to a lesser value. Use the math formula and the steer acle is removed from the equation. Still no room tanks to first driver to install a Lift axle, too short of wb, that and being quarter frame is no position to install a trailer lift axle.
Back to Top
DMiller View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 33682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2024 at 3:21am
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 6046
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2024 at 2:34am
Miller's predicament isn't a federal highway bridge limitation, it's Missouri.

Due to my line of work, I get asked about this kind of thing very often, and there's generally two vital circumstances that influence a state's bridge law...

The first is how the civil structures were originally designed and built, and the second is how tight the highway road radiuses were generally laid out.

The latter has a very heavy determination on the former, because navigating a tight apex with a long wheelbase results in the truck either spanning across the opposing lane (in a left hand curve) or extending over the shoulder or into right-lane traffic (in a right hand curve).  When passing through a tunnel, or under a viaduct, a long trailer risks striking overhead structures in those curves, and the only solution is to go to shorter-wheelbase trucks...

And that means that the loading of axle groups is inherently closer together, meaning a segment of bridge decking is subjected to much higher local load, than if the truck deck was 50ft longer.

Bridge law is all about concentration of loading.  A 100ft long truck with a 50,000lb load concentrated in the middle divides the load into 25k loading at each end.  At 100ft, the bridge's deck segments are short enough that the decking segments that the steer and drive just drove over you, will be clear of a span section before the trailer end makes it's way on...  but if that is, instead, a heavy-built short trailer will be able to pack it's entire heavy weight... all tires... on the same segment of bridge... and that means there's room for another identical load following close.
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
DMiller View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Hermann, Mo
Points: 33682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2024 at 4:18am
It IS a Federal Highways Admin Formula.

It has always been a Federal Formula, and problem.  States as MO and the further East where roads were developed and expanded upon by repurposing old wagon and farm trails, most call the hill country roads Ridge Runners as follow ridge lines of hills.  Bridges tended to be shorter and less well built as were built expecting to be used for a hundred years where have been.  Load Limits, lots of other concerns and the FHWA Bridge Formula came about during the heyday of truck weights growth 1930s/40s.  A semi in 1977 was typically licensed 73,280lbs, 80k did not happen until the 1980s as fuel consumption to move products became so prevalent, a typical dump truck in the 1960s carried 6-8 yards of materials where today is 16-24 yards.  Axle Loading was as enforced where scales weighed Per Axle not per truck as do today.


Edited by DMiller - 09 Oct 2024 at 4:19am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.


Help Support the
Unofficial Allis Forum