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Looking to Build

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Travis2766 View Drop Down
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Joined: 26 Aug 2015
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    Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 9:25am
Hi everyone, My 16 year old son finally talked me into buying a pulling tractor as a winter project. We want to start off in an antique pure stock or near stock class (1957 or older) and the big question of course is which model should I be looking for? I was thinking a WD-45 or a D17 series one (first year only). The local guys run a lot of Oliver 88's and super 88's so that would be the major competition. Would a regular WD be able to compete with the 88's? We don't have to finish first place but it would be nice to be competitive. 
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 10:14am
Oliver 88's are about as good as it CAN get. They have 6 speeds and an engine that can be bored and stroked to 550 cubes or a little more. They are to be feared. Oliver 77's are just about as bad, only lighter and 450 cubes possible.  I don't know what your rules are, and that makes a difference on how or what to build. Any Allis to be competitive with those Oliver's needs 38 inch rubber for more traction. This then requires more HP under the hood. Many more questions to be asked and knowing what ALL the rules and your expectations are. A healthy D-17 with 38 inch rubber weighing 4500 lbs in a STOCK class requiring low gear could be pretty good.
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Travis2766 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Travis2766 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 10:41am
I can have up to 38's and up to 20% over on HP but must be the stock block. If I put 38's on a d17 would I need to change the gearing?
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 9:04pm
I've been pulling tractors since I was 14, so that makes 50+ yrs I've been going down the track. I call things like they are.  20% more on the HP is B.S. and quite frankly an ignorant rule. Who is going to be the "King" of judging who has 21% over HP and who does not ??  If your tractor is missing the PTO, how are they ever going to check it?? How many RPM's are you allowed  ?? I have a D-17 with a stock block that is 100% over stock HP at stock RPM's, and it doesn't have a PTO. No speed limit ??  Real antique clubs usually have a Low gear only class or 3 or 3.5 or maybe even 4 MPH classes that are governed by some sort of speed detection device.  A D-17 could be ordered and purchased without a hydraulic system, PTO or snap-coupler hitch. They also could be bought without power steering and a narrow front end.  You can get down to 4,000 lbs on a gasser with 38 inch tires and with a good 53 HP engine (or 63+ HP by the rules) and be able to run the high side of low gear I would imagine up to 5,000 or maybe 5,500 lbs.  You say nothing about cut tires or not. A maximum width of tire ??  Lots of loop holes here is all I can say. But the 20% over stock HP that is a new one on me.

Edited by DrAllis - 17 Aug 2021 at 6:06am
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PaulB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2021 at 6:52am
I have been involved with pulling since the later 60s and have had single and multi engine modifieds and a couple of Super-Stocks, as well as starting with farm tractors right out of the field. Then later I got roped into Antiques and found how to push the limits of the rules, Currently I have a 100hp turbocharged D10.
  Trying to be a newcomer into something around 5000 pound will turn into a dis-appointment, as there are some very serious competitors in that weight range. If your local area has a 2500 pound class you can easily build a 40HP CA, that will allow running in 2nd gear after finding a set of tire to match your power and track condition. Even if the lightest class is 3000, find a WC, bolt in an E Gleaner engine then play with tire sizes until you find what works. 
   Just because other run 38" rears doesn't mean that you'll do well with 38"s unless you have the power they have. I've seen short tire out pull tall ones many times. Watch my wife running her CA at 2500 pounds in 3rd gear. 


Edited by PaulB - 17 Aug 2021 at 6:53am
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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CAL(KS) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2021 at 8:04am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

I've been pulling tractors since I was 14, so that makes 50+ yrs I've been going down the track. I call things like they are.  20% more on the HP is B.S. and quite frankly an ignorant rule. Who is going to be the "King" of judging who has 21% over HP and who does not ??  If your tractor is missing the PTO, how are they ever going to check it?? How many RPM's are you allowed  ?? I have a D-17 with a stock block that is 100% over stock HP at stock RPM's, and it doesn't have a PTO. No speed limit ??  Real antique clubs usually have a Low gear only class or 3 or 3.5 or maybe even 4 MPH classes that are governed by some sort of speed detection device.  A D-17 could be ordered and purchased without a hydraulic system, PTO or snap-coupler hitch. They also could be bought without power steering and a narrow front end.  You can get down to 4,000 lbs on a gasser with 38 inch tires and with a good 53 HP engine (or 63+ HP by the rules) and be able to run the high side of low gear I would imagine up to 5,000 or maybe 5,500 lbs.  You say nothing about cut tires or not. A maximum width of tire ??  Lots of loop holes here is all I can say. But the 20% over stock HP that is a new one on me.

  perhaps he misspoke and meant 20% over rpm?  like natpa D3?
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Travis2766 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Travis2766 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2021 at 1:36pm
The rules say "any tractor may be Dyno'd or checked for RPM limits. All tractor must have a working PTO if equipped, Random Dynoing will be enforced at judges discretion. 20% overage allowed". I'm assuming that means over on hp? because farther down the list it states stock RPM's, or is it my bad and that means 20% over on RPM's?

1957 or older, paced 4.0mph weight classes 3400,3700,4000,4700,5000,5500,6000,6500,7000,7600,10500
Max tire size
3400-3999 13.6x38
4000-4999 14.9x38
5000-5999 15.5x38
6000-6999 16.9x38
7000 and up 18.4x38
sharpend tires allowed (top only)
All tractors must have a working PTO (if equipped) and stock RPM's
Guess I never thought about building a lighter tractor like a C, keeps me out of the 5000# class. 
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2021 at 2:08pm
Stock RPM's means stock high idle speed setting. I'd say the 20% over on the HP is to allow for M&W pistons, power blocks etc.  The PTO thing " working PTO if equipped" will be cause for arguments on a D-17. You could actually order one without PTO and hydraulics. I've got a Sales book to prove it. Anyway, what I don't like is 4 mph speed pace, because that will allow for higher HP to show their stuff. There you go. A D-17 in the 4500 (4700 a typo ?) up thru 5500. You can hook three times at each event. With no power steering (an option) or hydraulics a D-17 with M&W pistons would run between 60 and 63 HP at the PTO and turn 14.9 x 38 tires.   I don't see any drawbar rules, but as short and as high as they will allow is best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2021 at 7:25pm
REAL pulling doesn't have SPEED LIMITS or other nitpicking rules Thumbs Down Those 50 cent trophies really mean a lot to some people and they really do cry when an outsider takes one home Cry
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2021 at 8:28pm
There are parts of the country that have rules which try to keep the competition close to each other. NASCAR for example has many rules to try to keep it so on any given day any car on the track could be the winner. Rules like this promote good close competing which grows the membership of the club. There are also rules that deal with safety. Most antique tractor pulling "clubs" that have multiple events thru the year have INSURANCE to cover the promotor and other people attending the event. Some of these rules would include wheelie bars, RPM limits to reduce the chances of flywheel/clutch /engine explosions and so on.  Without insurance, these clubs cannot exist, so one has "rules" both for safety and competition.  There's nothing more satisfying that winning a class of say 20 or 30 tractors and sometimes finishing in the top 5 of 50 makes for a pretty good day too.  Going fast is fun, I agree, but having many to compete against knowing that things are pretty even-steven when it comes to tires, drawbars, speed, etc helps make class numbers larger, sometimes much larger. I've attended several national events over the last couple of decades and I've been in classes of 100 a couple of times. Finishing in the top 10 is a pretty big deal even tho 4 MPH was the top speed. Each to his own style of entertainment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2021 at 11:14pm
dr. you said it all a good rule package makes for good club even better if you can follow a national assoseations rules , then you fit in any where you go 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie175 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2021 at 6:26am
If 3400 is the lowest class then a C would be a waste of time. A WC,WD,45 would be ideal at the range you have above. I'd pull the 45 in 3400 to 5500 classes. The 5000+ weight classes things would get tough as you have 88's and other large tractors coming in.
Our area and my experience is one thing, your area and the competition you  have may be totally different. Mid-USA tends to have more "Hot rod" tractors than our area. Our clubs tend to prevent use of aluminum to lighten tractors up so that keeps the 88's out of the light classes. 

Charlie

'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2021 at 2:20pm
As to the original post and now knowing that 3400 pounds is the lightest class, a WD45 would be my pick. Then play with tire sizes until you get a good fit. If you don't have the HP you don't need BIG/TALL tires. 
  Also after reading the synopsis of the rules, I see them as a perfect example of nitpicking and if you are not part of the "IN CROWD" you will get hounded until you quit showing up. 
   I am all for safety and avoiding accidents, as well as encouraging stimulating competition. However Rules should follow those lines, not be written so that a certain make or model tractor has a handicapped advantage. Speed limits seem to favor half motor tractors.
   NTPA was formed in the later 60s with the intention of standardizing rules to stimulate competition and encourage everyone to participate in as many events as possible. I was a part of this movement in NTPA in it's early years. Then some got into the leadership and things morphed into a show instead of a competition. and things began to split off into those that only wanted to be a "big fish in a little puddle". That is how we get these rules that don't really allow outsiders to join in and compete. A perfect example is the Classic Modified classes that are near me. There are maybe 5 different clubs that have that class, however because of their differing individual rules, you can not build a single tractor that meets the rules and will be allowed to run at all of them. To me a Classic modified would be how we were running them in the early 70s. Take a junk farm tractor, add a junk car engine keep everything within 14' from the rear axle and under the class weight. beyond that your imagination is your limit.
  Antique pulling in general also seems to have the "I want to be a big fish in a little puddle" mentality. Most often newcomers and outsiders are hassled instead of helped. I have been told many places that I wasn't welcome after beating them. That was when I just had a plain CA with a carburetor. Many time it can be more of knowing what to do with what you have than power. 
 I agree with Charlie, that Aluminum has no place in Antique pulling. 
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Travis2766 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Travis2766 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2021 at 9:51pm
Thanks for all the pointers, I’m just looking forward to building a tractor with my son and watching him pull it. I think I’m leaning towards a c, ca, wd or a wd45. The only question I still have is can a 226 motor from a d17 be put in a wd without too many headaches? I have a spare 226 from a d17, wondering if it would fit. Or if it would just add too much weight and I’m better off just buying a wd45?

Edited by Travis2766 - 18 Aug 2021 at 10:06pm
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WF owner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2021 at 6:04am
Originally posted by Travis2766 Travis2766 wrote:

Thanks for all the pointers, I’m just looking forward to building a tractor with my son and watching him pull it. I think I’m leaning towards a c, ca, wd or a wd45. The only question I still have is can a 226 motor from a d17 be put in a wd without too many headaches? I have a spare 226 from a d17, wondering if it would fit. Or if it would just add too much weight and I’m better off just buying a wd45?

Don't rule out a WC. An E code (Gleaner) engine bolts in easily and it will go in a 3000 lb. class. 

WC's, especially a non-running one, can be bought inexpensively and you don't have to strip off hydraulics or do anything to a hand clutch. The only downfall is hand brakes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken(MI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2021 at 7:50am
Aluminum doesn't belong in antique tractor pulling, but turbos do?? A major use of aluminum and other light metals isn't as much about reducing weight as it is about being able to put the weight where you want it. Many rules exclude certain tractors from lighter weight classes like Oliver 88's and WC's, excluding aluminum is fine but what about other weight loss techniques like gutting the gearbox, removing ptos, power steering, etc. ?
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